Brinn, how exactly can you be sure you didn't give double vote power to an evil piece? Is that part of the ability - logical double vote power? I suppose we're all entitled to know the details, eh (sorry if I missed something).

Because if you can't be sure - well, hey. Half this village is on my side.

Hey, it makes either you or I the last wolf, and I know which one I am.

But since everyone is more sure of Izzy, I am probably going to vote for her later.

Also, I'd like to point out that while Rikae herself may be royally screwed, that by no means means that the wolves have lost.

If whoever dies toDay is the cobbler, then the outcome of the game fully depends on toNight's dynamics. What if the wolves kill whoever was given the Power of Three? Then we're back to chance. Or what if they kill Brinn and she scried a baddie who then claims to be the new Ranger?

This game may be heavily swung in the innocents' favor (at last!), but it by no means is a done deal. I may be responding to you, Rikae, because I have nothing else better to do, but someone evil is still lying low and hoping no one picks up on him/her.

No, you would still be my King..... :Merisu:

Easy, silly. She gave it to herself.

...that is, if that's legal.

Well, yes, but these past few days whenever I've done number analyses I've always included myself as a known innocent.

Everyone is more sure of Izzy? How do you mean? Everyone is equally sure that Izzy and Rikae are evil! Self-voting, especially when you know you're done for, does not a cobbler make.

I'd say we should be told, then, whether that's legal.

Uh, I just meant that Izzy seems to be a definite wolf, Rikae seems to be either a cobbler or a wolf. I'd much rather vote a wolf.

Is it not possible that Rikae did it on purpose so that we'd think "wow cobbler, no wait that's a little crazy for a cobbler, she's a wolf, lynch her", when she really is a cobbler? I know it's convaluted, but it just seems too out there for a wolf, but it's caused enough confusion to be the work of a cobbler.

Besides, what wolf reveals her other wolf, no matter how much it looks like they'll lose? Which it seems it's what she's doing here. "Didn't I say we should kill her?" , no, I'm having a hard time believing she's an actual wolf.

Hmm...I wouldn't assume anything from Rikae's vote. She's infamous for self-voting, regardless of her role.

If anything my guess would be that phantom is our cobbler, mostly for his interactions with Fea. I know those two can read each other well and I have a hard time believing tp could be so wrong about her. Plus, they seemed to be hinting at each other at the beginning of Day 1. If anything, I hope tp is the cobbler because then it'd mean our known baddies are wolves.

I was thinking last night, if Rikae or Izzy is the cobbler, it'd be better to get the cobbler first. Because then we'd know for sure toMorrow we'd be lynching a wolf. If we lynched the wolf toDay then a cobbler toMorrow, then it's over for us. Unless I'm still alive toMorrow to make my vote power picks for the following Night.

Looking back at the possibilities:

1. If Rikae is the cobbler, then she somehow had to be convinced that Izzy was a White piece of some sort because there's no reason to sacrifice her if she could be evil. Of course, if this was so, then her judgment was very off. Putting Izzy on the lynching block would be a risky move for a cobbler, but then again Rikae likes to take risks and her behaviour is cobblerish (though she also acts cobblerish as a wolf and sometimes even as an ordo).

2. It's really funny, looking back through the Days, I spotted this from Mirandir:
Interesting that she spotted that as a possibility from Day 2. It's weird that Rikae would want to sacrifice Izzy in the game, but then again it's Rikae. And the way she sets up her suspicions, it does seem a bit pre-planned. While cobblers have made fake reveals, I've noticed that it tends to be more often that a wolf does it. If Izzy really is the Black Bishop, it would've been a perfect bluff, and they could've gotten away with it.

3. Mnemo makes a good point that the Bishop wouldn't be able to recognise the Black Pawn through a dream. So either Rikae would've made a lucky guess, or Izzy somehow hinted to the wolves that she's the cobbler. Or perhaps Rikae didn't think Izzy was necessarily the cobbler and decided to throw her under the bus regardless of her role. Though quite honestly, Izzy doesn't look very cobblerish to me.

So yeah, I still find Option 2 most likely because it makes the most sense and would be quite typical of Rikae. And I certainly hope I'm right.

EDIT: X-posted with 10+ (apparently I'm really slow)

Look, a doomed wolf is nothing but a cobbler with Night Kill powers. Rikae is a bold, bold player (look at her reveal yesterDay!) and I would put nothing past her.

As for a wolf revealing one of her fellows, it's really quite easy. This is how, IMO, wolf!Rikae would wish yesterDay had gone, keeping in mind none of us had any clue as to how the WQ works:

1). Rikae reveals.
2). Brinn counterreveals.
3). Confusion!!!
4). To test, we lynch Izzy.
5). Izzy is proved right; Brinn is called cobbler and just left alive and mostly harmless.

Or something like that. I will admit, the whole "reveal" thing makes a lot more sense to do from a cobbler's perspective. But I would put nothing past Rikae.

Let's hold our votes till Her Majesty shows up, shall we?

x-ed with Brinn.

Well, Brinn, Rikae seems to agree with you about phantom... :rolleyes:

I suppose, I mean I've never played with Rikae before so I don't really know how she works, it just seems so crazy to me, :(, uh, I'm sooooo confused.

I almost feel like just rolling a die and voting for someone on random, it's all so all over the place, I can't even think anymore. :rolleyes:

I'll be back in a bit, I need to clear my head and re-read everything from toDay again...

I am the black bishop, actually. If you go back over my posts, you'll see that I left hints about my dreams in my lists. In one I listed them with the same "what I see" phrase, in another, I put "..." before my mentions of them.

Not to mention that, since I dream at the end of the Night, I left hints about the role of the person I dreamed in my first post of each Day for my buddies to see.

So there you go. No tricks, you can trust me.

Let's just wait and see how Brinn votes, eh?

Not really. For the first few Days it was doing more harm than good- if anything I was helping you baddies out. As for the scry ability, I don't think it's too powerful. I can only successfully scry if I choose a White Pawn and since weren't many ordos by the time I was able to scry, my chances of being successful were rather slim.

And hey, you had plenty of opportunity to Night kill me. :Merisu:

Because I just know I made the right decision toDay. ;)

Yep, she's right. We haven't won the game yet, so anything could happen.

Yep. That, as well as other reactions from Rikae make me feel Option 2 is even more likely.

I haven't decided just yet. Do you guys need me to vote soon? I have to shower then go to campus to work on a project. I wouldn't be back til evening, but no later than 8:15 EST (and probably even earlier).

Of course, I can't discount the possibility that Mnemo or wilwa are Black pieces since I don't know any White pieces for certain. But with each moment of the Day it's looking less and less likely that they're evil. And if one of you are, then you're fooling me... :rolleyes:

EDIT: Meh, I'm not gonna wait any longer to shower. But I'll be back shortly.

Personally, I don't care; I have all Day. But I'd rather see you take the initiative than one of our "unknowns."

Well since these unknowns are you, phantom and I, and we know Brinn is innocent, perhaps we should find a way to work out a tie between Rikae and Izzy, and then see what happens?? Though I suppose that could go terribly wrong...K, never mind, bad idea, we'll just wait I guess, see what Brinn thinks when she gets back. Wow, this is stressing me out, :rolleyes:.

I have an essay that needs some attention anyways, I'll be back later.

No, Brinn, it was completely unbalanced. The wolves couldn't eliminate the gifteds, but couldn't make more of themselves. You had the ability to find out the alignment of whoever you scried, and the ability to break a tie vote; you are a good wizard + more, and there is no role on the evil side to balance that.
As for being able to Night-Kill you, I can't speak for the other baddies, but what I said about the WQ's role yesterDay was my best guess. It would have made more sense, when the BQ couldn't generate extra baddies.

How could the wolves not kill the gifteds? That makes no sense to me.

The White Queen balances out the fact the this game had gifted wolves, and that there was 2 kills per Night. The wolves still had a great advantage.

Er, Brinn just said she could replace the gifteds. So the wolves could kill all they wanted, they couldn't eliminate them. I did my reveal yesterDay on the assumption there was one gifted left.

Actually, come to think of it, that only was the case after all the original gifteds were already dead!

All that a non-working scry would mean is that the player already has a special role. If she had scried Noggie Night 1 it would have told her absolutely nothing.

So that particular aspect of the role is only valid when we lowly innocents are already down in our numbers!

Ok, fine. The game was entirely balanced. A dueling wizards game with only one wizard is just dandy.

You innocents really deserve your victory. An endless supply of gifteds and triple vote power. Yeah. I hope you're proud of yourselves. :rolleyes:

Exactly. In most other games the 3 wolves and the 3 gifteds makes it all balanced, this time we had 4 gifteds (and only a small possibility of more) with 3 gifted wolves, plus two Night kills, the White Queen had to exist to bring it back to equilibrium. Rikae should not be complaining, the fact that technically half of us are good and the other half bad, with so few left, shows that this game didn't really give one side a bigger advantage over the other, it's totally fair.

x'posted with Rikae....almost want to vote her just out of annoyance...

--Rikae

++Brinn

And that's all. Do what you like. I'm fed up with this game and won't be saying another word in it, whether you lynch me or not.
:mad:

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa, who doesn't seem to realize that a wolf-seer is practically useless when new gifteds are being generated.

Grey Queen enters...
 

as one of the more temperamental werewolf players, I am not going to criticise anyone for getting stressed, I have no right moral or otherwise. I understand how easy it is to get frustrated.

However as a word to the wise, may I suggest a deep breath, and a pause before posting anything too personal / critical?

love Mith

Thanks, Mith.

Well, if you can give yourself the power, then we've probably got this thing won. Kill one of those two, use your Ranger creation gift overnight, and if you are successful at it the Ranger will protect you and you can give yourself vote power and we win. If you don't create the Ranger correctly you'll know precisely who to give the vote power to (won't you?). I guess technically the WWs could gamble correctly and kill that person, and then the game would end in a coin flip.

But still, it's a pretty safe bet.
You accepted that a little too quickly, Wil.
I'm not in your service, dearie. As is obvious from yesterday's activities, I doubted your claim, and came into today expecting someone to counter it.
But if she isn't, you'd say the final Wolf would have to be Mnem, right?

I haven't really been watching her all that closely. I've kind of just been writing her off as innocent throughout. *sigh* I don't really feel like going back and reading her zillions of posts.
M'dear, I already explained earlier that when I saw that her first post spelled "VIP show" backwards, I had been working under the assumption that she was Gifted. Had I been the Cobbler I would've mistakenly lynched her when I had the chance.

But honestly at this point it does little good to debate me. We already know I'm not a Wolf, and that's what really matters here. We're aiming for a Wolf, plain and simple.

Yes, cause cobbler was the first thing that popped into my head, I'm not quite as sure about it now, but I'm still not sure she is actually a wolf.

Yes, that's what I'm saying, Mnem seems like a logical choice to me, especially since I've been suspicious of her for a while anyway, and since I'm still inclined to think you innocent phantom, which I'm truely hoping is a good move on my part.

Nah, you could eliminate them, and you did eliminate them faster than I could make new ones. And considering I've only been successful once, it's not like I've been making gifted upon gifted. And Mnemo's right, if you hadn't killed Kath on Night 4, I wouldn't have been able to assume that Fea was evil. And anyway, I am not a Good Wizard since I cannot make baddies ordinary and am no more immune to kills or lynches than any of you. Nor did I have the option of communicating with any gifteds unless the seer dreamt of me. In time you'll see it is balanced; right now you're just frustrated because you realised your fake reveal has signed your death warrant.

Speaking of that fake reveal, if I had those abilities that you claimed, it would've been even more disadvantageous to you. Because then I would've been able to dream of you last Night and know exactly your role, then hunt and possibly take another baddie down the following Night. And of course if I had those abilities, then Izzy would've died on Day 2, not Nogrod. When I think of it that way, I kinda wish I had a seer/hunter ability instead... :rolleyes:

Yeah, I feel you. But this isn't the first time Rikae has gotten irritated in the middle of a game, so I wouldn't want to vote her for that reason alone.

Yeah. Just keep in mind that if the two White Pawns do follow my vote, then it should be at least 5 votes for Rikae or Izzy. Also, my guess is that the final unknown baddie will want to remain hidden for as long as possible and so it is less likely they'd take initiative and more likely they'd go with the flow. Plus, if you guys decided to vote now, you can still retract later.

I really need to leave sometime in the next hour so I can get my schoolwork done before the Avid lab closes. So I will vote when I return.

Seconded.

Still, we have nothing else to talk about at the moment, and if there were some way of proving your cobblerhood ("were" in the subjunctive, implying that there isn't) then we'd know for sure that Rikae and Izzy are both wolves.

The only thing that we do know for a fact is that one of us three (you, me, and wilwa) is dissembling.

Go ahead and look through my zillion posts if you'd like. If you're looking for something, I'm sure you'll find it, because throughout this game I've been spontaneous and seeking to have a good time. I may have inadvertently left a million VIP shows, because rarely have I thought through the consequences of my posting and whether it would make me look innocent, evil, or whatnot.

I am, however, curious as to what would make you so keen as to write off my innocence for the majority of the game.

Of course I know you're not a wolf, which is why I wouldn't vote you. But if Rikae and Izzy aren't the cobbler, then you, Mnemo, or wilwa is (and of those three, I'd have to guess you). If Rikae and Izzy aren't both wolves, then you're obviously innocent and either Mnemo or wilwa is the final wolf.

This is pretty much what's making me so sure of Mnemo, cause I truly trust phantom and obviously know that Izzy and Rikae are both guilty. Since I'm leaning towards think Rikae as more of a cobbler that's leaving me to think Mnemo is the final wolf.

Oh, and the VIP Show hint isn't the only one I caught (though it is interesting and tp could be interpreting its meaning differently than what it really is). I also spotted this:

Maybe I am just stretching things thinking they mean more than what they really are. But then again, you two have managed in the past to make hints out of things in ways I didn't think possible...

Like I said, I need more time to think.

*facepalm*

I just realized something... If you could give yourself three votes whenever you wanted, you would've been doing it throughout. And since you're very confident about your choice today, that means you have it today, which means that this is probably a one time deal which means... you can't give it to yourself tonight. :rolleyes:

Okay. So turns out you're going to have to gamble to some degree. I suppose the only question is, do you have to submit your picks at the same time? (you don't have to answer that!) Like, if you can wait until after you see about your Ranger conversion, that would be nice. But if you can't wait, then I honestly don't see any way you can assign anyone extra votes tonight, because there will be a 50% chance you're handing victory to the Wolves.

Of course, that's no different than having a coin flip the last day, so maybe you should take a chance. Only problem is, you still are leaning towards mistrusting me, and that would put your odds of giving vote power to a baddie at 66%. In that case I'd much prefer the coin.

This is what I said earlier in the game- I HATE being alive at the end. It's nerve-wracking. At least in this game I have an excuse- I can just leave everything to Brin and follow along like a lemming. I don't envy you one bit, m'dear.

You saw it too? Then what did you think of it when you read it? I mean, wasn't it logical to suspect her of being the Seer after that?
As far as the Star Wars stuff goes, I was merely screwing around (it was Day 1 chatter, wasn't it?). If I remember right it was Dury who said we should "let the wookie win", and I just agreed with her as a joke. If I were the Cobbler and had actually thought she meant something by it (Wookie = WereBear, perhaps?) then I wouldn't have lynched her yesterday.

The Lando comment was merely because I had just seen the episode of "Scrubs" with Lando in it. But if I'm remembering correctly Nog and Fea took the Lando thing and ran with it, leading to that absolutely silly Seer-clue disagreement (which in hindsight I guess wasn't silly at all, but sinister- exactly as Noggie suspected).

And now that I know it was basically my fault that Nog died... :rolleyes:

I would do that *headdesk* thing, but I've done that enough already.

This is what I meant by people being able to read too much into stuff.

Then again, this is the 'Downs we're talking about, where people can give cryptic clues and stuff (yeah, I tried that in a RL game with honors students--didn't work so well) and people will actually FIND them.

I, for one, shall laugh if the whole VIP show thing was wholly unintentional.*



*Although this could lead to some interesting psych theories about the predomination of the subconscious in WW players...

She could have just meant that since her, phantom, Eomer and a bunch of other good WW players were in this game that it made it pretty important, and would be fun to watch. I wouldn't read into it.