morm for Lommy
Green for morm
Lommy for Shasta
Kath for Nogrod
Shasta for Lommy2

I would feel that my vote would go to the most genuine person if I voted for Lommy. But I will not do it as she is already chosen and I do not think we're in a situation where testing someone's super-delegate powers would be in place.

Somehow I'm not ready to try morm either. I'm tempted though, for curiosity that is, but I think we'd need a more neutral character here.

That leaves me Kath basically. I know she has a cool mind and I'd wish to see her in the delegation to balance this black and white -looking situation. Once again it's half trust, half curiosity. I think we can afford yet another try for that.

And I think she hasn't made a comment on Boro and tp for a few Days now so she might have fresh eyes for that.

++ Kath for representative

warning- will probably be boring to all but Nog...
 

Nogrod- that was a long post, and I can't really find the point of it. Well no- I can find the point that you are attempting to make, but I'm not sure how any of it applies to anything that's been said.
You said this in reference to some quotes that I made, and I'm not sure how it applies. Let's list these quotes and go through them one by one.
In this quote I was responding to Brin after she gave a mock quote from Boro and I painting us as very arrogant and mean and insulting to others. In my response, I am telling her what the feeling was behind any statement that I had made, and making it clear that it was not mean-spirited.

So I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to prove with that quote.
In this quote, I am logically pointing out that what she has said about us would be perfectly true if we were innocent, and thus it didn't seem correct that it would be brought up as a point against us.

Once again, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to prove with that quote. It seems pretty logical to me.

And the final quote-
Once again, this quote is fairly straightforward. Brin said that Boro and I should never have brought up the ploy. I respond, giving her the reason that we did discuss it- to build further trust. A logical answer to the question, is it not?

So, seeing as all three quotes you gave were perfectly sensible and addressed specific points in the posts of others, I can hardly see how anything negative can be attributed to them. You say they were low quality, but I fail to see the reasoning. And has not the logic of a great many of my answers today showed quite clearly that those that suspect me have huge gaping holes in their arguments? Far worse than any you've shown in mine.

And I notice that you have not commented whatsoever on some of my extremely sensible posts. I even laid out your "chess match" for you, and asked your opinion, but you ignored it.

It seems to me that you are reading only what you wish and grasping desperately at straws. I am not the one who is "not delivering".
You know good and well that the statistics have nothing to do with our trust. I've only brought up statistics in order to logically demonstrate to others why they shouldn't be so hasty to assign Wolfishness to our trust.

So I've been asking myself, "Is there anything wrong with wanting to affect the wolves' kill?"

Answer: no.

Only problem is, the wolves aren't going to kill a wolf. In a game with one team, an innocent is going to die at night.

So, assuming Phantom and Boro are innocent (which I'm still not ready to admit to)....

I suppose, from the point of logic, it was a sound plan. I still don't think it was at all fair to Agan (and Boro, seeing as how you were one of the people who made it happen, it's probably not your place to say "Oh, Agan's fine with it, in fact she's honored" when she's probably rolling in her grave right now), but I can't find anything wrong with it from a factual, coldly logical standpoint.

I'm a very sympathetic WW player, though (much like Rikae seems to be), so I'm still mad about it. :mad:

You're missing the point, buddy.

An innocent is going to die. Every Night. It's a guarantee. There's no way to stop it from happening.

The best an Ordo can do is try and keep the WWs from making the best possible kill.

EDIT: It's not nice. I'm not saying that. I feel bad about it. But sacrifices must be made. And I don't think there's any way we're going to kill the Werewolves with kindness.

I understood part of his point to be that if the village finds you suspicious, then you're doing something suspicious - protests and ploys notwithstanding. You have a responsibility to play in a way that conforms to the system of popular suspicion that rules Ww, so if you are attracting too much attention, then either change or defend yourself just like all the other players. Don't ask players to take your innocence for granted.

I hope I am not misrepresenting you, Nogrod.

For the record, everyone, I myself do not yet have a position on the phantom-Boro thing. I'm just trying to help keep the discussion going for now.

1) The attention I am getting is likely Wolf-driven, and you cannot defend against those who do not wish to be swayed. (though that could be said of some Ordos as well)

2) I have defended myself. Quite nicely. I've given perfectly logical explanations for every behavior in question. Any honest reason for suspicion that anyone has been able to come up with has been addressed. But the same points just get raised again, as if I never answered.
That's part of the whole problem, though.

If people would just go back with an open mind and read one after the other each of my posts this day, this discussion would not have to continue, with the same points repeated again and again.

If I continue being a distraction, it is no fault of my own. There are four people who wish me to be a continued distraction, and they are the ones driving this, and unfortunately they are managing to tug others along for the ride.

Thoughts, questions, and concerns.

The Great Boro/Tummy Alliance
You know what? Say I that I buy it. They're drawing fire. They want to see who jumps on their open declaration and raises the suspicion. One might get lynched but then the other will take up the charge the next Day and flush out all the WWs. Sweet.

And if they're wolves, you know, then it's just going to be inevitable. I'll be smoking a cigar and they'll break into my room and I'll gruff, "It was only a matter of time" before they throw me out a window. (Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?) I joke, because I have no idea what this alliance does for them as wolves, other than allow them to work together openly, which they've pretty much been doing anyway.

I didn't catch the seer ploys put out by either of them, though. The quotes that they brought up seemed to me to be not that significant, and now they have complete deniability for anything that they say because they can just go, "It's a ploy! Jeez,Ilya, shut up and let us help the village, why don't you?" That gives me pause. They've been going after those who're questioning them with a snideness, and it's that tone more than anything that makes y'all seem arrogant and suspicious. Look, guys, be patient. I don't get it. I don't get what this gets us if you're innocent other than one of you lynched and the other silenced during the Night. If you want me to trust you, and I'm inclined to, just try and be a little patient with us, is all.

I'm not ready to lead either one of them to the oaks quite yet. I want to see how this develops.

Ordinary People
I have a feeling Gil's not playing anymore. That, or he's the ultimate submarine!
Lommy keeps speaking sense.
Sally, I don't have a read on yet.
Everything Kath has said feels on the level.
Rune, too, feels genuine.
So does Greenie.

Boys Becoming Men, Men Becoming Wolves
My initial, gut suspicions were of Agan, Brinn, Morm, and Nerwen. Even though I've already been proven wrong, they still hold. I'm less suspicious of Brinn, though, and more of the other two.
Shasta jumped on The Alliance with a lot of relish today.
Nogrod has phrased things in ways that are weird. I think the concerns raised about a "lynching distraction" are legit, whether Nog's a concerned citizen or a wolf trying to take the high road. I dunno which.
Gwath, while discussion is a good thing, there ought to be an aim when one tries to direct it. Maybe it's just the way you phrased the sentence, but it sounded like you wanted to further the distraction without planting a flag on either side.

I've no idea what I want to do about reps. I'd like to see what Rune would bring to it, since he hasn't had a turn yet, and I want to see more of Kath. I want to see more of Shasta, but I'm not sure if I can trust him, so I don't want to vote for him, and then there's Uncle Boro and T.P. John Bull over there, trying to show us they're fighting the good fight...I need some time away from the screen and mug of strong tea to think about it.

Edit: [b][b]/ is not the right code.

Ok, that's fair. My post does kind of sound like that.

Hi, I'm just halfway through reading toDay's posts. I'll get back to you.

See, I'm not sure where this "snideness" and such that people are seeing is coming from.

The closest thing to it that I've done is rolled my eyes at two different conclusions people keep coming to-
1) They're working together. There must be a Wolf involved.
2) I don't like ploys.

Neither of those opinions make logical sense in regards to assigning guilt to someone, so surely you can understand my disbelief when I see it again and again.

And as far as saying we're "arrogant"- I have seen confidence on display (in the sense that we're confident in our opinions), but nothing that should insult people the way full blown arrogance would.
I've spent the majority of the day giving the same rational reasoning over and over. Trust me- I'm being as patient as I can be.

And if you are inclined to trust me, you and others had better seriously think about giving me some Rep power to defend myself with.

A note of sheer amusement-
 

Y'all think this is them being arrogant? That's funny.

I'd have to agree entirely, I finally had time toDay to scan over two days worth of chatter (weekends are my longest hours, because my work knows I don't have any small children or other 'important' responsibilities to prevent them from doing so:rolleyes:) and think about it at work and Nogrod is a bit too fluffy than normal. Whether he is a wolf or innocent, he's not as quick to join in what otherwise would be a normal Nog activity. Otherwise than him deciding to try a different tactic this game around, he seems more friendly than usual, even as a representative.

Definitely, because they're enjoying the fact that everything is going too smooth already. Which would explain what looks like progress and reason on our end of things still turns up dead innocents on both voting groups. The only good thing so far is that the wolves are obviously still scratching around for the Seer.
If anything the wolves are counting on our 'kindness' to keep the dirty business of killing by Day easier so that they can spend more time on their Seer mission, the only saving grace is that our Seer is being crafty and laying low so even if we don't get anywhere, our Seer might.

One thing we need to remember is, there are only so many innocents before either parties hit a wolf or forbid, a seer. It's frustrating now because seriously, this game's progress reminds me of a completely sober version of musical chairs.


I'm hung on who I would like to see as a rep this time around, taking into account what obviously has become a normal game pattern. I'm going to go and read some more while I still have time.

~ Ka

Ah, I forgot to make another point about this.

What does arrogance have to do with guilt?

Or let's say I was walking around calling everyone names and being a jerk. If that was the case, I would ask, what does even being a jerk have to do with guilt?

I believe that many people are allowing annoyance to play a part in their decision. Remember, we're trying to kill Wolves! That is the one and only point of this village. I don't care how mean or rude or anything someone acts- all that matters is the liklihood of them being a Werewolf. That's all.

In addition, people being annoyed with Boro and I for all of this seems rather silly, as the two of us are about the only two people who aren't actively trying to focus things on us. Trust me- we'd much rather you looked elsewhere.

My joke about why I didn't support filibusters. I said I had a strange dream about tp blocking my vote. Maybe it was too obvious, but I liked it. :D

I thought I had done so, but I echo what tp said, nothing is ever met to cause offense. I encouraged Greenie yesterday, and have others today, to question. Trust me that's a good thing.

I'm not saying tp, nor me, nor Nogrod nor any one person are the only one's capable of getting wolves lynched. Everone's got a part to play, this is how I do it. I know we have to keep the seer alive as long as possible, to have a fighting chance, in the mean time let's do what we can to also find wolves. There's still a lot of game left to be played. ;)

Good point, it's really the one's who try to tip-toe around and keep the peace with everyone that you have to watch out for.

Those who call a spade a spade, and do not fear the repercussions are most likely innocent, they don't have anything to hide. The wolves do.

Amen, bro.

EDIT: Oops, I just agreed with you. That's very suspicious. :D

As of now, I believe these are the ones with rep votes:

Lommy 2
morm
Shasta
Noggie
Kath

Lommy has already been made a rep, so I will vote:

++Shasta for rep

Because right now I find him pretty innocent and I'm curious to see what he does in a position of power.

I’ve seriously given it some thought, and I’m going to have to vote for Greenie this time around. Echoing the concerns of Boro88 and tp, our wolves are obviously enjoying the fact that we’re all sitting around on our thumbs and trying to come up with some clues to vote for whom and why. It might put our seer in a different position by taking a different approach, but sometimes it’s needed to stroke the fire a bit.
With this in mind, and from past experience of playing with her, I can see her as being a much needed catalyst to at least getting a clear view on what so far looks like a mundane haze. So, I’m electing Greenie because I know she’ll poke better than the Spanish inquisition. The only thing I’m hoping for is that the other possible reps will try to act differently as well.

If I felt like starting a joke wheel I could make a pun of this:Merisu:, but tp does bring up a good point. The only reason why they both appear in the spotlight and ‘annoying’ is because its more convenient for the wolves to have us babbling over whether to vote B88 or tp, or which one is a ‘wolf’ than pay any heed elsewhere. If the voters are looking somewhere else, their reps are looking somewhere else as well whether out of their own need or respect for their base.
It would be much harder for a wolf representative or other individual wolves to swing suspicion if we’re not looking at just two people, whether arguing such as Agan and Lommy were, or agreeing as B88 and tp appear to be.

++Greenie for Rep

~ Ka

Updated list-

Cleared of all charges-
the phantom

Off on a technicality-
Boro
Kath
Nog
Sally

Plea bargained-
Gil
Green
Gwath
Ilya
KA
Rune

On trial-
Brin
Lommy
morm
Nerwen
Shasta

The votes thus far-

morm for Lommy
Green for morm
Lommy for Shasta
Shasta for Lommy (2)
Nogrod for Kath
Brin for Shasta (2)
The KA for Green

The Reps:

Lommy- 2
Shasta- 2

That's nothing this is going to be the real kicker. Out of the choices I see I could vote for Nogrod or Kath as a representative.

But, I would really like to get you in there tp, if no one's willing to follow up, I will vote for someone else.

tp, post 934, Kath voted for Nogrod as rep. ;)

After my readthrough of yesterday (that I did before this day started), I came into today wanting to give Nog a try. I may still do it.

But I will do what I must to protect myself and the people I believe to be innocent, and so my vote might go elsewhere against my initial leaning.

From now on you are known as Mormegeil, in short: Geil


It is true that Morm has not gathered suspicion and that in it self is suspicious ergo Morm AKA Geil is a wolf!

Actually it has been bothering me that Morm has been regarted so innocent, but there really is very little reason to suspect him.
What makes you sure the seer has not dreamt about the more quiet people in our village?

EDIT: I forgot to type in one of the responses

++Greenie for rep



Didn't see that coming, did you? ;)

Here's my Rep voting list from yesterday with votes from today added to those that have cast them.

Brin +++ Agan/Kath/Shasta
Boro +++ tp/Agan
Gil +++++ none/none
Green ++ Brin/morm/morm
Gwath ++ Nog/none
Ilya ++++ Boro/Rune
KA ++++ Boro/Lommy/Green
Kath +++ Lommy/Boro
Lommy ++ Ilya/Nerwen/Shasta
morm +++ Nog/Agan/Lommy
Nerwen ++ none/Lommy
Nog +++++ Ilya/Boro/Kath
Rune ++++ none/morm
Sally ++++ Legate/none/Green
Shasta +++ Agan/Nerwen/Lommy
tp ++++++ Legate/Kath

Alternatively, it's Doctor Who, not Dr. Who. And I'm a-shakin' in my boots, my little accent challenged companion. :p

*runs to Canada before she gets roasted*

That is possible, when I'm the seer sometimes I like to dream of those who I really will never have a clue about...whether that's because they're quiet, or they're just plain out sneaky. But, I also make sure I check bases with those who take a lead in the village.

The fact is the seer's had three dreams now, if tp wasn't one of them I'd be extremely shocked. You check base with the one's who take a lead, and therefor you can be sure what their intentions are. Now I also understand the current situation, there are 4 wolves, so if tp was a wolf, I wouldn't expect the seer to make a reveal, there's still lots of wolf-hunting to be done. But, I have yet to see a reveal, saying tp is a wolf, and I have yet to doubt his intentions, until then I will trust him.

Ooh... Huge difference. :p
I think it's funny that the self proclaimed "Queen of the Midget People" would call someone "little".

Oh...

morm watch out I smell a back-stab on it's way:
Just giving you the heads up buddy. :D

Actually, there is a huge difference. And if you had ever seen the show, you would know. :p

Surprise, surprise, everyone who's not being a little drone and taking Phantom's innocence for granted is on his suspicious list. :smokin:

My friend, I said something to Lommy about this type of question earlier.

Such a query is akin to asking me, "Okay, who is the person that you think is the Seer who has dreamed of you?" or, "Okay, so are you maybe hinting that you are the Seer?" Though those interpretations are a bit extreme, you see what I'm driving at.

There's no true way I can directly answer a question about probable Seer dreams without pointing at potential Seers and potential Seer dreams and that sort of thing.

And so I must respectfully decline giving a full answer to that.

Here you go Morm, now send Boromir to the dark abyss that awaits him.

++MormeGeil for Representative

Well, then Sally can explain it to me next time we visit. I already have too much info to process... Time Lords, planets, pepper shakers, multiple bodies, but still the same guy, and yet called by a different number, and something about two hearts... I'm lost.

Re: Boro and the phantom.

On the one hand, it is quite unreasonable of them to expect that they can act the way they're doing without being questioned, and the fact that they refuse to see this doesn't look good.

On the other hand–

I'd have been very suspicious if, in my absence, no-one had accused Boro... I mean, it's hard to claim you're being framed if no-one's framing you. (That's a thing that worried me about him on the McCaber issue.) But that's not what happened this time.

The fact that no-one else has defended either Boro or the phantom to speak of suggests to me that for them to be wolves, we must be dealing with a planned wolf-sacrifice situation.

So whatever they are, it follows that there are probably wolves among their accusers.

Therefore my vote will go to an independent, i.e. someone who hasn't taken sides on this issue.

EDIT: x'd since the phantom at #980.

And I repeat, I've encouraged Greenie to ask questions twice, I've answered what I did, tp's answered what he's done. And you wonder why we're so impatient. :rolleyes:

My internet is shoddy at the moment, so I'm gonna just vote quick and hopefully I'll be able to get back into the discussion once it's recovered.

++Boro for representative

I still trust Boro more than Shasta, and I think Kath'll get in on her own. Let's see what the dynamic duo do with the power. And btw, tp, arrogance has nothing to do with guilt, but talking down doesn't win anyone to your argument. No reason you can't be civil, and I guess perhaps I'm taking seriously some stuff you don't mean in a malicious way.

I voted Morm insted of Kath, as I felt that I had more of an idea who he might vote for and I felt quite comfortable with the options.

I like Kath and feel good about her, but there are simply to many unknown factors about her and so I decided against her.


My bed calls.

Wow, Rune that's a strong statement...you want to place a bet behind it? That way it wouldn't just be empty words, but there will actually be something behind it? Do you have the spine, sir?