Where did the consistant and gathered morm go? Just recently you said you're not all that suspicious, now suddenly the phantom or myself has to be a wolf, and of those two it's most likely me? You've been poking at tp all game, but now you want me lynched over him?

Things change Boro, tp has been odd and your little buddy-buddy relationship has bothered me. Your reactions are conving me more and more of your guilt. Now it seems that you are willing to turn on tp to get him lynched over you...odd you just said when you are a wolf you are willing to turn on your mates if it's to your advantage.

Now you sir are putting words in my mouth. I asked you why you suddenly want me lynched over tp, I have not in any way thrown him under the bus.

I think it's pretty much hilarious that some of you guys are suspecting me of Wolvery on the basis that I'm actually trying to do something to help the village (impact the WW kill to avoid the Seer).

What have you done for the village? Any ploys working for you? Had any ideas?

No. Of course not. You'd rather get all twisted out of shape because other people are actively fighting the Wolves in ways that you don't like for some reason. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm home now and I'm catching up on the reading. I'll be giving some direct responses shortly.

I'll give you this too...I have a feeling Rune's gonna like this one;

In this game, I would gladly say take me, and not tp...but see if I gave that impression they (being wolves) would of course take the phantom.

Okay. The way I see that chess match. I'm not yet saying I have a strong opinion who are the real players, I'm just trying to give a picture of what were the "seen" moves in the game and will give a few thoughts of it afterwards. And I do hope you will have your say about this as well!


Part I

1st move
2nd move
3rd move
4th move
5th move

Interlude by Daychange
Which is pointing at this earlier post.
Part II

1st move
2nd move
3rd move
4th move
5th move
6th move
7th move
8th move
9th move
10th move

Oh my. This is a stupid endeavour indeed... :rolleyes:

I mean the rest is there for you to see.

Bleurgh. I feel such an idiot at the moment, but I hope the compiling of the beginnings and how it went yesterDay helps...

I thought it was a good idea but turned out to be a Sisyfos-task.


And I seem to have crossposted with a lot of people so I'm leaving this here but will try to show a few points after I've read the latest.

I made the executive decision when he first showed up and claimed that he refused to read the rules that you guys get to deal with him. I'm staying right out of it. :D

The best choice for rep is obvious.



--Gil for representative



:p


EDIT: I would have added something else to my 'nomination' but I figured it would get me modfired. Hehe.

If 2 was true then we'd get totally busted by the Seer.

If 3 is true then congrats to Boro. You're playing awesome.

But logically option 1 makes the most sense. And if option 1 is true then that means Boro and I are trying harder than anyone in this village to bring about victory. Yeah, so let's lynch us. :rolleyes:
Now, all of this nonsense about questioning my Seer dream statements. To me, it seems as if you're asking, "You seem sure that you've been a dream already. Who is the Seer, Phantom?"

Well, I don't think I need to tell you that I'm not about to touch that question.
Indeed, I did set up Agan to get killed.

I was originally trying to set up Gil, but your sister managed to throw a wrench in that ploy. So instead I tried to set up Agan. Good thing you weren't around or you probably would've tried to sabotage it.

And as far as the "the wolves falling" for the ploy- that is possibly what happened. Or it is also possible that the kill was made for reasons of their own, but happened to fit nicely with what I was trying to accomplish. There's no way to know.
It's nothing we haven't done before.

As a matter of fact, I can recall a game (I think it was another of Fea's) where Boro and I reached a complete understanding on the very first day.

Sorry, but that's just how we roll.
I'm counting on it. I plan on being Wolf-bait tonight. Unless Boro beats me for the honors, in which case I shall find my rest the following night.

(to be continued....)

Oh, I wasn't really seriously believing in your guilt before, but you're starting to make me more convinced. That is not a very good defense, dear sir. That does not in any way explain your actions. Just elaborate a little. Like "I forgot that..." or something. Also, you replied nothing when I commented about your earlier contradiction...

~*~

Ok, now a list.

Innocentish
Brinn, Rune, Greenie, Kath - it's just the general tone of their posts, and a gut-feeling. I'm well aware, though, that they might be slipping under my radar too.
morm - I don't know, he just seems very innocent toDay.
Shasta - however fishy you others find him, I have to admit it, I trust him.

Middle
Nerwen - I used to consider her rather innocent but something, maybe the general mood in this village, has made me more doubtful. Also, I know she's so terribly horribly sneaky as a wolf that I'd do right in distrusting her a little. ;)
Gil, Gwath, THE Ka - not enough material to go on.
Nogrod - I think he seems rather innocent now, but he has been rather suspicious in the past... He's curiously distant in this game and I can't get a proper read on him.
Ilya - looks more innocent now. I'm not ready to bury all my doubts of her yet, though.
Sally - more like traditional innocent sally than traditional evil sally, but she could really just be either. She makes me raise my eyebrows a little from time to time, like that long explanation of hers of why Nerwen's guilty really didn't make any sense to me.

Suspicious
phantom, Boro - (surprise surprise :rolleyes: ) I don't like all this ploy stuff of theirs. I think it's totally possible that just one of them is a wolf (and it's even possible they're both innocent, but for that they're acting pretty darn suspiciously) but it would be difficult to say which one since they both have suspicious traits of their own on top of those that they share. Tp seems somehow a little detached, throws around weird arguments, is over-eager to defend himself and dismisses suspicions against him on weak grounds. Boro keeps flip-flopping and seems to avoid stuff.

In conclusion: I have very little idea who to vote for a rep. I'd be tempted of picking one of those that strike me as innocent but slip under my radar but I don't really know.. somehow I'd be more comfortable voting either morm or Shasta. Oh, I need to think and also, I need to see who my rep-candidates suspect and how and why... Also, I must say I'm not content at all with only finding tp and Boro suspicious. I dn't want to get too focused on them.
But anyway, now I'm going and handing the keyboard over to Greenie...


edit: mass-exd

I'm daring to believe this is good news looking at this game. It means we can count him within our numbers, that is when the tally is done.

But you who haven't played with him should also know that his history in WW hasn't been the most pleasant one to be honest as he tended to get lynched or killed everytime he played quite early with basically the same reasons he got picked on in this one...

Some of you of course didn't know that and I'm believing that was unintentional. But you might wish to send him a PM after the game? Just a suggestion...

Yes! Indeed there was!

And you'll notice that part of it was meant to keep you alive as well. The whole Boro-Nog war that I threatened... that was a complete bluff. I have no intention of starting one. I never did. But I was hoping that it might help the WWs think that it would be beneficial to leave you and Boro alive through the Night.
Yes, the reason why I'm really trusting him at this point is that he appears to have caught onto my ploys and not attempted to ruin them, while at the same time running similar ploys of his own.

I've heard plenty of people say they don't like ploys, blah blah whine whine- but the fact is they have worked beautifully in the past, and have possibly already aided us in this village. So seriously, who cares if you don't like them?
I wanted one more day.

I got it.

So tonight, I do indeed hope to leave the village honorably via Wolf-kill.
Did you read yesterday at all? I did try it with Gil.

Ditto to you sir.

I don't take the time to respond to those baseless accusations. I fail to see how it was a contradiction, I was asking Rune to clarify what he said, it had nothing to do with what I thought about Agan and her death.

I thought you would have known by now, I have an answer and explanation for everything when I'm a wolf. I can make every piece of the story fit together. I don't have all the answers Lommy, give me a couple days and maybe I will. Right now I have no clue who are the wolves, but I have a good feeling on a couple people I think are innocent, and there's a place to start. I'm not conventional, and I don't play it safe, you don't like that fine, but at least try to distinguish the difference between mindgames that try to baffle wolves, and mindgames that intentionally lead the village astray.

Edit: crossed with the phantom.

You'll love this one too Lommy, I'm actually in the process of another ploy right now, but if I told you right now, I'd have to kill you - or well make sure you wouldn't tell the world.

Villager 1: "Oh really, you are? Tell us what it is! Tell us!"
Villager 2: "Nah, just go ahead and do it, but know that I think all ploys are suspicious!"
Villager 3: "Ooh, ooh, and if your ploy works and you succeed in thwarting the Wolves, we'll try to lynch you!"
Villager 4: "Yeah, that makes sense!"

Is that not what you are doing?

People start to question you and you start whining "sob sob I am the one trying the hardest, people don't get me sob sob"

I don't see any way you can confuse people complaining about effective ploys with me pointing out what they are doing.

To Noggie, re: my fake vote for Gil.

You realize I was kidding, right? I meant no harm, Fea's comment just caught my eye and I couldn't resist the joke.



All right, children, play nice now. If phantom and/or Boro are wolves, you're probably playing right into their hands by talking about them and pretty much no one else.

In addition, I cannot see how you can attempt to take my obviously exaggerated paraphrasing ("whine whine") and turn it into some kind of point. And I won't even mention that my "whine whine" addition was far closer to the truth of the attitudes displayed than your "sob sob" summary of my attitude.

++Lommy for Rep

Okay so I'm likely to be a bit more hit and miss for the remainder of the day and I would like to get my vote out there. I think Lommy the most innocent and I have a degree of trust in her. She is responsible and wise. She will do what she finds best with her vote and she has a similar mind to me.

FYI...they are doing some hardwood flooring work in our house so I will be displaced tomorrow and a few days this coming week. Internet access may be a bit more limited, I'm not sure if I will have access where we plan to stay.

Some comments on the hot potato of the Day - phantom and Boro.
This is a good example of a thing that has been bothering me in Boro for some time, but I've never remembered to point it out before now... It's actually very similar to what he said to Nerwen at the beginning of this Day. Both times, a small quote followed by a direct, half-playful accusation. I have no idea what he is aiming at with those. Ummm... Actually, Boro, are you serious with these or not?
Now this really makes me miss the games in which you could be an OK villager without making all sorts of ploys all the time... Just imagine a village in which everyone is fabricating their own ploys and whenever someone throws suspicion around (always as a part of the ploy, though), it will be answered by "Shhhh, if you are innocent, you'll leave that be." :rolleyes:
Ahem. Sorry to be simple, but if you really are innocent and want to do so, why say it aloud? (Oh sorry, I forgot. This must be a ploy so you obviously can't answer the question.)

Honestly, this ploy stuff is getting on my nerves. :p I don't like a situation where a few players can basically turn away every suspicion concerning their weird behaviour saying "Oh, that was a ploy, but of course you are too silly to understand advanced WW-playing. *sigh*"

Gah.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom, Sally, phantom and morm

Whenever people don't get what you are up to, you tell them that it is a ploy and when they start questioning that you get offended.

I did not see anymore whining from their part, than from you. . . . So that was why I made my remarc.

EDIT: Cross posted with LG

A slight correction... Nog didn't vote Legate himself - I wouldn't be so wary if he had. What worried me was that he raised a point (quite vague and exaggerated, based on Leggie's Star Wars jokes) against Legate when there already was speculation about voting him around. It seemed like encouraging people to vote an innocent Legate while keeping his own hands clean of doing something Nog would obviously never do (ie. lynching a contributing player on Day 1).

I'll vote for a rep soonish, and my vote will probably go for one of the three I mentioned earlier (Rune, Sally or morm). I could also vote Lommy. I'd like to hear other people's opinions on who they'd like to see as reps, so I could better judge who is a reasonable vote candidate in the sense that I could hope that the same person gets another vote as well. The whole business of choosing reps seems to have been forgotten in all this phantom-Boro-mess...


EDIT: x-ed with Rune

Green- you asked a question that I think needed to be asked at this point. I'm preparing an answer. :)

That just shows how easily I can be manipulated. . . When I read that I was sure I remembered Noggie voting for him, I guess I should always go back and check these things when in doubt. (or maybe it just shows that I have no memory)

I appologise Nogrod

Hmmmm. I think I'm going to wait until I get back from work to vote. At the moment, I'm considering Boro, Morm, Phantom, and maybe Lommie or Greenie. Semi in that order, but not specifically.

So basically I have no idea yet. ;)



Re: Morm.
Thanks for letting us know you may be gone bud. Have them come redo my kitchen when they're done, would you? ;)

You are totally exaggerating the situation. Not very many ploys have been done, and to my knowledge they all have been explained in detail.

So this business about turning aside every suspicion via ploys and not allowing people to talk- that's simply not true.
Incorrect. I can answer this.

The Wolf-bait ploy: That I am perfectly open with the fact that I am but a Seer-shielding Ordo does not negatively impact the ploy, for the Werewolves know good and well that I might do the same exact thing as the Seer. They fear this, and thus feel compelled to kill me despite my declaration that it is a trick.

On one hand the WWs desperately want me dead. On the other hand, it is possible that to be killed is exactly what I want, so they are equally compelled not to use the kill on me.

What is the obvious solution?

Kill me, but not with a Night kill.

In other words, get me lynched.

And has anyone noticed? That's the direction the wind has started to blow. All of you, put aside your suspicion of me for a moment and read through that explanation again. Pretend that someone you trust wrote it. It makes perfect sense, and I believe that that is exactly what is happening here in this village.

Anyway, thanks for asking that, Green.

Any other questions? I'm innocent, and I'm here to help. You might want to try and talk with me rather than suspect me simply for being buddy-buddy with someone else who, according to the odds of this village, has a 75% chance of being innocent.

So a few possibilities over that chess-game.


First Nerwen's initial answer to Agan looks pretty odd because of a few things.

First she tries to nullify it with the fact that Agan changed her mind during the Day. She indeed casts suspicion on Agan for doing a Legate 180 twice (with Lommy earlier) - while the original Legate 180 was an innocent one!
Secondly she still left it open, leaving reservations like it would be clumsy for an Aganwolf - which is true indeed.

But clearly it looks bad for Nerwen. She defends herself strongly (with bad reasons, look the first point above) not to get lynched but still tries to leave a considerate aftertaste to us others while preceeding to kill her at Night (point two), right? So Nerwolf thought that as Agan's case was so bad she could have been a seer? And therefore... end of story.


Second thing is the initial phase of the proposed "wolves should kill Agan" plot.

First of all Boro made his remark on "signing Agan's death warrant" as an "edit" PS. to the post. If it was sincerely an edit it would fit nicely with his subsequent post answering Nerwen's "threat" of starting to suspect him with: "I'm going to move to strike this entire lame duck period off the record, and therefor it would have never existed", so effectively backtracking from what he said? This interpretation would make Boro look wolvish and tp not. Also the status of Nerwen could be called into question. How about they (Boro & Nerwen) played it together? Nerwen says: "if you keep saying stuff like that I'm afraid I'm going to have to start suspecting you". It's nicely articulated to be a wolf on wolf to be sure.

On the other hand, if Boro was using that "edit" and "PS." merely as a ploy and had intended to give that appearance trying to make Agan lynched for the good of the country as he was so secure she was not the seer? And then tp managed to get the plot in less than five minutes. Real heroes!

But correct me if I'm wrong. My feeling is that tp has claimed to be the mastermind of that plot and made a big number of it - not Boro. Still Boro made the first move if this is true... There is something too smooth in this story for me to believe.

Maybe tp got the idea from Boro's hasty PS. and Boro followed suit? If that is the case I'm really astonished and admiring your teamwork.


Okay. It seems there is a lot of posting and I'll have a break here...

Nope. I like having fun, I'm demented. Rune didn't say anything about it, I doubt he felt the need to. Well I'm not going to speak for him, it was nothing purposeful on my part.

I believe I told you yesterday I want you to question what everyone does, that's a good thing. I love using questions :).

What I'm telling you, is everything I'm attempting is for the sake of anyone innocent, if you believe me, I love you. If you don't that's your own choice, have the spine to send me to the gallows and live with the decision when you're proven wrong.

I'm more than willing to do so, I'm glad to see morm's and you have the right idea.

Thanks to Sally, I only just realised this... I'm not sure I'll vote him for my rep after all, if he's not sure how much he can participate. (And yes, I can well commiserate with that... we'll be having some guys "fix up" our bathroom soonish - thanks to which the apartment smells of sewers and there's some nerve-wrecking noise going on during day-time. I hate it already though they haven't even started at our place yet...)
A pleasant surprise. I'm looking forward to that. :)


EDIT: x-ed with phantom, Nog and Boro

That's a great break-down, Nog.

If I'm remembering correctly, ever since my idea to get Gil killed was shot down, I was looking for an opportunity to shoot someone else up into the lynch spot. And I believe I already had Agan in mind, for I had her listed as my most innocent person on the list I made well before Boro ever made his comment.

Additionally, I had in the back of my mind that I wanted both myself, you, and Boro to survive to the next day (that was the reason behind my Boro-Nog war comment). Thus when I saw Boro's PS, a door opened to both set up Agan for the kill and say something threatening to Boro (making it more likely that the two of us would survive the Night).

And then later I once again threaten to start a loudmouth war between the two of you (once again, trying to keep the two of you safe during the Night).

So, that is the chess match from my vantage point. Does that help at all?

I hate that I have to leave now (I will be gone in 10-20 min) when things are interesting, but I do. I will be gone a few hours, but I should be home long before deadline.

I don't know who to vote for. . . Kath, Mormegil or maybe Phantom
I have no candidate I feel really good about and I can think of reasons why not to vote for any of these, but they are still the people I would feel best about voting for.

EDIT: Cross posted with The Phantom

Not to discredit Morm or try to sway your vote too much, but he said he may not be here much the rest of today. Perhaps you should go for one of your other choices.



I'll probably do the same thing. I trust Morm (at least to a point) but if he's busy I don't want him to have to dash around finding internet connections or, worse yet, not be able to post.

We do work well together, which I think might be getting under some people's (i.e. wolves skin :D)

But anyway I don't know who the mastermind was...I noticed tp tried earlier with Gil, that was blown up, and so I tried someone else. I actually didn't know tp was playing along until the "reading assignment" post I thought he was serious in starting a Nogrod/Boro war, if Agan was killed.

Look, I'm not trying to get innocents lynched, far from it, I would have filibustered if Agan was in trouble (seriously). But, I do want to keep the wolves off the seer for as long as possible, and that means giving wolves ordos to go after. Maybe they went after Agan because they really thought she was the seer, I don't know, but to me the plan worked, and it's a big gorilla off my back to see tp caught on and added his own part.

Honestly, this may probably make me look more suspicious, I really don't care...but if I was a wolf and believed Agan was the seer, why would I set her up for a wolf kill? Why not just quietly take her out at night, because she trusted me and voted for me as a rep even?

I disagree with you here. If you were innocent and I were wolf (oh how I love to write those two magical words in a row...:Merisu:), I would definitely want to keep you alive because, as you can see, the discussion revolves pretty much around you. There is bound to be at least one wolf who is slipping by very nicely as we are debating this, regardless of whether you are innocent or not. Get my point?


EDIT: x-ed with Runey, Sally and Boro

Greenie, I understand your reservations, however if I am voted as a rep, I'm willing, if needs be to take my laptop and sit in my car in the driveway while I use my wireless network if necessary. I wouldn't mind being a rep and I believe I will have access but I wanted to make sure everybody is aware that at the end of this DAY it may be a bit more difficult.

Where is Kath and Ka today???

Ah, I see Rune. I wasn't attempting to come across as "offended". I assure you I was expecting some stuff like this to happen, so I wasn't outright offended. Partly amused, partly surprised that so many seemed to be thinking that way, and rather shocked that aspects of it had not already been challenged by others.

Wait. The end of today or toDay? I think I misunderstood your post.


Heh and that's why I was considering not voting you. Don't know about where you're at, but it's cold here and I'd feel bad if you did have to do that. Not that I don't think you'd be willing to do it, I'd just feel rather sorry for you. Hehe.

Really? Even if you thought I was maybe the Seer? That sounds like suicide to me.

And even if you'd want to keep me alive despite that, I doubt your packmates would agree with you.

Vote for me, Sally, or I will make like a "squid in a pepper shaker" and exterminate you!

:D

EDIT: She tried to give me a crash course in Dr. Who yesterday. Don't ask.