As long as you don't call me "Gwathie."

Well...it's not Shakespeare, but that's all I can say for sure. That, and I wish it were. Shakespeare, I mean.

But of course there is this....

If I had been assigned the role of Walter, I would have, without a doubt, seen the benefits in impersonating the Divo. I mean, usually a suspected gifted would get killed in the Night, and thus when you keep living and keep living a gifted impersonator would be swiftly suspected.

But not if you're impersonating the Divo, for they cannot be killed at night, and so it would be no wonder that you continue living. It is protection from the village and the Critics to be the suspected Divo. And thus I would have, right from the start, set out some clues that, upon looking back, would "prove" my claim as the Divo.

So, if our resident Walter sings the same way I do, he will be as likely as the Divo to be believed. In that case an early reveal (as in now) would indeed be nice.

Lot earlier than Uncle Bill, Gwathagor....

What if the current Divo is unable to around a lot, and the resident Walter takes your advice, makes the divo claims says..."Here's my proof?" We all soak it up than we have a mess on our hands. The divo is lucky I'm not a baddie this game, if I was I would have no problem with making a false divo reveal right now and get the real divo lynched, when xe would step out to refute the claim. I can be quite convincing when I'm evil, ask Shasta. :p Speaking of which, where'd he run off to?

More like, where's he been?

In a round about way, what I'm trying to get to, is instead of debating the strategy of what the Divo and/or critics/Walter will do at this stage, how about we start stepping on some toes? Critics' toes preferable, but Walter's, divo's, ordo's whoever, at this point it's lets cut the crap and I don't care who it is.

Well, not necessarily. Sometimes when placed under the gun, the true innocent is revealed.

I'd imagine Mac was killed, because after his plea yesterday it would be difficult to make him a lynch target. And Agan was kept alive because she could be manipulated to make a poor vote, where Mac may have had the right scent. But, don't take that offensively Agan, I realize the only reason I'm still here to is because I know squat and when I know absolute jack, the wolves manipulate my vote easily too. I'm only good as a seer or a wolf, because I have more info. When I have no clue what is going on, the only people I seem to benefit are the wolves.

True. And when I return from some lovely spaghetti dinner that is being made for me, I will finish what I said I was going to do at the beginning of the day.

I considered it but decided against, in favor of, ya know, not being killed. ;)


Indeed, not our dear Billy Bob. Think back a bit (read, while) farther.

It's a risk that can't be avoided.

Bah you didn't convince me. :p Only I wasn't able to be online at that time which was a pity.

Yeah I kind of thought about that. ;) I'm way too obsessive about my suspicions.
Of course it's also possible they killed Mac to cause a distraction and get us speculate what it was that led to his death. There are several possibilities and frankly, I don't want to start speculating right now.

Anyway darlings I really need to go to sleep. Not perfectly sure when I'll be back - I'm busy tomorrow. I try to come up with something more productive then.

I have a gnawing bad feeling about Boro.

What's changed?

Oh, why bother asking questions of her? You already know she has no evil motives behind her suspicions.

You just need to talk her out of it.

I have my reasons. Most of them are RL. I have been trying to pay attention, though.

Which is why I'd like to state the following;

I'm seeing a Boro/Sally connection today (sorry, dear). Even though I've been horribly wrong all game, I'm willing to bet at least one, if not both, is/are critical. I'll post what I've seen momentarily. Mind you, this is today's interactions only, I haven't had time to read the entire thread.

Don't know:
sally
Lari
Boro
Gwath
Shasta

Innocent:
Kath
Agan
phantom

So there are two Critics left, a Cobbler and two innocents. Which means that even if we threw caution to the wind and double lynched we wouldn't be certain of getting a single baddie.

What's worse from my point of view is that I can't be here at the deadline. In fact I'm going to be gone from 1pm my time and won't be back due to RL. For that reason I'm going to reveal, so that you know my 'innocent' list is actually entirely correct. I am the Diva! Contrary to phantom's assured beliefs that we are all as clever and forward planning as he is I have pretty much failed to leave proof of who I am. I started to try in my first post, began the first sentence with a D, the second with an I, and then realised I'd have to start a sentence with a V and couldn't think of how to do that without looking weird and gaining suspicion that way. If it helps with believing me I can tell you the reason for the role, however, which came out of a discussion between Mith and myself over how irritated I got when about Night 5 is reached and I'm generally killed. My role was actually decided months ago, which is why I have always believed that Mith's Critic roles were hand-picked and not left to the randomiser.

Therefore for entirely game involvement reasons I would be inclined to think that Boro and sally would be our Critics. Making Lari a wolf in her first ever game, in this game with people like phantom and Fea around, would be tough on her. Given what we've seen of her I've no doubt she could do it, I'm just not sure Mith would have dropped her in at the deep end. Gwath and Shasta have been too disappear'y recently.

My actual game suspicions do somewhat match up. I mean what was going on yesterDay around voting time. I can about see where all the votes for Mac came from in the first place, he was jumpy, insistent, abrasive - but then why did everyone suddenly seem to change their minds?

Gwath: sally
Shasta: Gollum
Cailín: Gwath
Boro: Mac
Agan: Mac
Mac: sally
Lari: Mac
Kath: Cailin

At this point things were pretty normal, then Agan chooses to kill Cailin, we discover that she's innocent and all hell breaks loose.

Firstly Lari suddenly announces that she wants to retract Mac and vote Gollum because Gollum looks more suspicious.

Mac obviously goes for this idea as he knows he is innocent but doesn't know about Gollum.

All perfectly normal.

Then sally appears asking someone to retract Mac or she isn't going to vote. This looks very odd to me. 'I may think Mac is potentially guilty but I don't want to lynch him. ToDay anyway.' Why? We are now not lynching the guilty people? I suppose if she thought he was the Cobbler rather than a Critic that makes a little more sense but even so. Then votes Gollum - why? Was it just to avoid the double lynch or did she actually think he was suspicious?

And that's where I'm up to right now and my battery is about to die. I'll be back in about 10/15 mins with battery and thoughts!

Thanks Kath. I can see no reason not to believe your claim.

Boro, what has changed is that I read about half your posts yesterday and, you know, since I'm always paranoid and obsessive at least at this point of the game, I couldn't help noticing some suspicious things.
But you can actually blame phantom - it was he who first pointed out the cobbler things in your first post (which I wouldn't have caught myself). As the cobbler's information is passed on to the critics, xe can use that to make xer identity known to them. Therefore what's the reason for an innocent to pretend to be the cobbler - the critics would catch a bluffing innocent soon enough for accusing the wrong people and such?

This is also why I don't trust phantom. He can help us, sure, but he also does whatever pleases him.

Sorry, had more to do than I thought.

I'm going to vote now and I'm going to stick with:

++SALLY

I don't like voting for her when she hasn't had a chance to reply to what I said about her earlier but I really have very little choice. Right now she looks the most suspicious to me.

See you toMorrow ... assuming we get this right!

The only thing I can think of doing then is...

++Boro

Best of luck critics. I doubt I can be of any more service.

Before anyone says anything else, I'd also just like to point out I'm a secret-holder of information. Have fun.

But I will say, Kath, darling, they've known about you for a couple days now. ;)

So while doing this I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s possibly hard to figure out wolves from their kills because of counting in Fea.

The phantom: Obvious kill. And by that I mean if the wolves were playing smart than they would have taken him out of the first day. From what I’ve heard you never know his role or who's side he’s on anyway. Plus, well this one I don’t know if we could find any other wolf who would want the phantom dead more than Fea.

TGWBS: Pretty much obviously Fea. Now she wasn’t/isn’t working alone, but this one has her all over it. He kept suspecting her and if she had any inkling that he was the Seer then she probably would have gone ahead and killed him even if the other wolves didn’t agree. So his death, while really bad for us, is almost only hers.

Brinn: Interesting choice. I’m not at all sure why she was killed. Did the cobbler tell the wolves she was innocent and they just went for her? She thought Kath’s Ilya vote was a little suspicious, which might have been the truth, but other than that nothing. But her death made Mac look bad. Were the wolves setting up Mac? Which leads to who thought Mac was guilty and to…

Mac: Who was clearly not who anyone thought would be killed(myself included). Sorry Agan, but, well, I thought you were a goner. Agan was against him, but so was Boro. We know Agan is innocent(or else her revenge kill wouldn’t have worked yesterday) but we don’t know about Boro. I changed my mind on the vote because, well, if he was guilty then there would have been a good chance we would have lynched him today. And I really did think that Gollum was guilty. I thought Mac might have wanted to vote with me to save himself, sacrifice one to save themselves and all. But now that he’s dead, not so sure. His death makes Boro look suspicious though. Would the wolves have known if he was innocent though? Did the cobbler spy on him? Not sure, but then again, not sure who the cobbler spied on at all.

Now I should go back through all the suspicions and see who's left. Sorry about this being late, RL popped up so much to the point of I thought of dropping out.

Okay, just (sort of) woke up. Couple quick reactions as I hit the snooze button. ;)



Kath: You're getting it wrong.


Boro: What the heck?


Lari: Hmmmm, you bring up an interesting point about the night kills. I'll have to consider it real quick.


In any case, I need to wake up a bit. I'll probably post some at work (depending on which management people are there today) but otherwise I'll have to just pop in and vote.


And I'm wondering quite a bit if Boro's self vote is a trick. *rolls eyes and yawns*

I'll be back in a bit when I can speak in semi-complete sentences.

Okay I just read through the thread which was a terrible job.

The play's the thing
Wherein I'll catch the conscience of the King.
So, Hamlet wanted a proof that his uncle had murdered his father. Boro needs proof about murderers too... and knows how to get it?

The innocent Boro I'm used to tries to protect the seer.

On day 1 Boro suspected sally because Nog said she was trying to be forgotten. I still think the reasons were bad. The following day he preferred Ilya, Gollum or Cailín over Bowie, sally and Shasta to be lynched when it came to submarines.

Boro is persuasive about tgwbs not dreaming of a critic on night 1. I'm not so sure. I think it seems the most likely he dreamed of Fea and Mac before his death. However, although Boro was clearly on top of his innocent list, he didn't suggest once that tgwbs could have dreamed of him but insisted a phantom dream was more likely. So no one would be surprised when he kept surviving?

Somehow the way Boro reacted to me on day 3 looks cobblerish.
So... I was simply the most suspicious character back then as tgwbs's evidence pretty much pointed against me. What does Boro do (and I suspected him based on he and Fea's interaction)? Be Prepared. "Hey Agan you're clearly a wolf, don't bother going after me!"
I noted he was singing my favourite song, and after that I think he seemed to, well, not exactly defend me, but not be certain of my guilt either.
Plus he considered defending me on the following day. Not that I have anything against it but still it just doesn't feel innocent.

**

I don't like sally's day 2 vote for Gollum. I think he was too easy a target, plus as Brinn said, sally sounded like she was just echoing her reasons. Also, she's been laying back a bit, at least it feels she has.

I'm still somewhat suspicious of Gwath but his reactions in our talk about whether the diva should reveal or not seemed innocent. I'm rather sure sally and Gwath aren't wolves together though.

Of the others I have nothing special to say yet. Might want to analyze Lari if I have time though, she's been flying under my radar.

edit: xed with two Boros, Lari & sally. Grr do you have any idea how much time I would have spared if you had said that earlier? :p

I think you misunderstand, what I'm trying to show you. Give me just a little more time.

What do you mean by trick?

Anyway it's rather clear that he doesn't have the singers' best interests in mind. I think we should lynch him today. There's after all a risk he's a bluffing critic (although given what I've been able to make of his posts thus far I'm not inclined to believe so). However, lynching him would mean there's certainly one baddie down. If we lynch an innocent today we lose tomorrow.

Also, as there are only four innocents, one of whom has voted already, it's very important we all vote for the same person.

How does this situation look so familiar...? Oh now I remember it was my second game and I wanted to get The Saucepan Cobbler lynched instead of taking a risk and we lost the following day.
Which means Shasta is a wolf! :p

edit: xed with Boro

That' exactly what I meant by trick. Either self-voting to get us to kill him (if he's Walter) or self-voting to get us to think he's Walter and not kill him (if he's a critic). Remember that we have to get a CRITIC today, not necessarily just a baddie, if that makes sense.


I know you were kidding, but I really did go through Shasta's posts last night and found....erm, nothing. Is it just me or is there pretty much no substance? (I know he's been very busy, but he's left not a whole lot of a trace all game and I'm wondering if that part is deliberate)

Ugh, you can never do any tricks around here anymore that will work. People blow it up before it ever has a chance of working. :rolleyes:

;)



See, I'm entirely backwards this game, obviously, so if I trust someone they have to be a critic or Walter. I trust Boro, so he's gotta be evil. ;)

I'm wondering, however, why he didn't try to hop on to Kath's vote for me. Well, too obvious I suppose, and there's always a retraction. Of course at the same time if he wants to make me look guilty (be he Walter or an actual critic) all he needs to do is support me and I'll get the lynch. (And they'll get the game.)

Here's the deal...

There is one crucial mistake you are wrong about Agan...this
I don't have time to sit here and defend myself, or go through posts to try and defend myself. And besides even if I did that rarely ever works. With Kath's reveal, that left...

sally
Gwath
Shasta
Lari

Who I was unsure about. My Walter reveal was fake, now why would an ordo do a fake cobbler reveal? I did it a long time ago when Fordim was a cobbler, I faked a cobbler reveal to not only prove my innocence but force the real cobbler to come out, that was our only shot of winning.

I thought I'd attempt it again, I could get the real cobbler out, plus prove my innocence leaving 3 unknowns 2 of them critics. Those are hell-a-good chances. But now that's been entirely blown up. And now all I can tell you is lynch me and it's over.

Votes are

Kath-->Sally
Boro-->Boro


Obviously I'm not going to advocate lynching myself, because for one I know I'm innocent, for two I'm not a masochist (at least not today ;)) and for three of the two candidates Boro is the ONLY choice of not losing the game toDay. So if I have to, yes, I will vote for Boro, because I'd rather take a chance on killing Walter and letting the critics win than I would see a known innocent (in this case me) die and have us lose the game for sure.

Headed off to work in a bit. My participation my really go down the tubes for the rest of the Day. My apologies.

EDIT: X'd with Fea....erm, I mean Boro. ;)

Honestly, not quite sure I believe you Boro. You could be the cobbler just revealing, you could be a faking ordo, you could be the cobbler pretending to be a faking ordo. We others have no way to know it.

I hate to say this, but perhaps it's best to ignore him. Well, not ignore, but concentrate on perhaps lynching someone else.

Kath=diva
Agan=soulmate
Sally=innocent
Boro=a headache ;)

which leaves Lari, Shasta, and Gwath. Which of those is the best choice?

(And remember, Agan, I'm pretty sure Mith picked the roles, Phantom notwithstanding, at random, so it's very possible that Lari IS a critic. I'm not saying that she is, but don't discount it as a possibility.)

I need to get ready to leave for work. Sorry.

I remember that. I don't think I've ever suggested she hand picked them. :p

And I would be suspicious enough of Boro even without his cobbler reveal now. Come on, why would an innocent want to give cobbler hints? It seems rather impossible he could convince the critics without the necessary information at hand.

And all innocents should vote together. Kath and I won't be around at deadline which is enough for the wolves & cobbler to mess things up if possible.

You won't until I'm dead, that's correct. But very well. I had to make it look convincing.

Maybe I can stop with the silly ploys and be of a little more use.

But do we really believe Kath and Boro? If Kath's only proof is her word and Boro saying he's the cobbler and spied on her then who do we believe? Yes, Kath could have known her role the whole time. Yes, Boro could be the cobbler. But what if the cobbler didn't spy on Kath? It seems more obvious that the cobbler would spy on Mac, the phantom, Fea, and Agan. From what I've seen of the game those seemed to be the most obvious choices. I'm not saying I'm the cobbler but to me that would be who I would spy on(well, and from what I've heard of previous games from Fea).

That being said, what if Boro is an ordo? I've heard of(again Fea) being an ordo and playing to the wolves. I mean, I seem to remember her saying something like that once. Would Boro do the same thing?

It seems the people are really quick to believe Kath as the diva and really quick to believe Boro as the cobbler. To me, that just doesn't seem like anything else that's happened in the game, with the exception of Fea's obvious guilt.

And wow, I mentioned her a lot in this post. Didn't really mean to do that.

Why do you think those are the cobbler's choices?

It's possible Boro is innocent, I just find it unlikely. It's also possible he's a critic (hmm I forgot that from my previous post where I listed what he could be). He could very well try to kill the real cobbler and make himself look good.

I believe Kath is the diva because she looked innocent even before her reveal & she revealed in a convincing way. I don't believe Boro is a baddie just because of his reveal - as a matter of fact I xed with it when writing a post why I thought he could be the cobbler.

Just a warning that I won't be posting much/often for the rest of the day. Not doing something that's conducive to sneaking. :(

--Boro

All I can say is today I would like not to be lynched. If I say I'm a critic, everyone (critics included) would want me lynched immediately, and then I'm really dead. If I said I was Walter I was thinking well maybe not everyone, because at this stage Walter counts in our vote tally and now we don't want Walter dead. Walter serves no more purpose to the critics, he only counts in our favour. So, I thought if I faked Walter, there would be a less likely push for my immediate lynching. Plus, I would hope to prove my own innocence, drag out the real Walter, and get us down to 3 unknowns.

I guess I've said all that, and repeating won't help. But what about the effort to save Mac yesterday? And then above everyone else Mac is killed at night? The critics saved him and then killed him, to either silence him, or make themselves look better.

Mac votes for sally, retracts and votes Gwath.
Lari votes Mac, retracts and votes Gollum
sally votes Gollum at the end.

I'm not a critic. I will say I'm not walter either, but that will be harder to prove considering what I've posted and said.

But, I can prove I'm not a critic. Whether you believe it or not...well that will be up to you.

Hmm I think Mac voted for Gollum. He considered voting Gwath, though.

Go ahead and try, Boro.

To me, they seem the most likely to have been dreamed of. From seeing the whole Mac suspicions on the first day, knowing about the phantom previously as well as Fea, then those seemed like the best. Plus, not going to lie, if I were the cobbler, saw you listed with Fea at the bottom I would spy on you with the possibility that you were another wolf.

But I'm not the cobbler, those are only how I would see a cobbler voting.

Also, even though Walter counts as an innocent, he works for the critics. And the thing is, it doesn't actually matter if we get him or a critic today - the situation will be the same tomorrow. Therefore it might be better not to take unnecessary risks and kill whichever we can find instead of accidentally lynching an innocent.

There seem to be a lot of claims to innocence floating about right now. The only one I'm really prepared to believe absolutely is Kath, and only because of her story of how she was chosen for the role. If I was revealing, I would do it like that.

Crossed with Aganzir, Lariren, Aganzir