I would really like to wait for Rikae to return before I vote. With her just running away, we've got far more questions than answers.

Legate, how exactly do you know that seer has not dreamed of you?

Hmm, I was afraid it would come to this, but see, in any case lynching me toDay will be a mistake, I can tell you. The question is, if we "lynch" Rikae and she turns out to be the GW, will it be acceptable as not that much of a loss - only a loss of a possible Wolf lynch we could have made instead - because she otherwise revealed (she claims), so no other things will stem from that lynch - but if it ends up with her saying it's me or her, then it's clear. Also, her self-vote... does not really, really make sense. If she's playing on sentiments, that would be a good move.

I don't still understand why she revealed though. I would most likely be for lynching her - but the first thing I would like to see would be, as I said, having her around to post.

No, no, I don't know that, but I am all saying in the condition that Rikae would say she knows for sure that I am evil. Because this far she said several times that I am evil and gave no reason. I asked her why she thinks so, in my very first post of these (not the long one where I quoted everybody, but after she self-voted) and she was not around anymore to respond. So I say: If she came and claimed that she knows (i.e. that would mean by Seer dream, otherwise she couldn't know) I am evil, then it's obvious she lies - at least to me, of course. Because I know what I am and therefore I know that HER Seer (if she is the GW) could not have dreamt of me, otherwise she would know what I am. Have I made it clear?

Legate, you seem awfully calm. Your last post, in light of the fact that Rikae is trying to get you lynched, seems terribly detached, as though you weren't the one in trouble.

My brains are... blegh, at the moment. Has anyone thought to do an analysis of Legate?

As a side note, hooray for the mad ammounts of analysis I've seen in this game!

What!?!!!?

I'm back and I'm baffled.

My initial reaction was that Rikae's revelation does not look credible, but also Legate's reaction to it was rather wolvish. So I'm rather mystified.

(Hmmm... It just occured to me that Rikae might be a very bold ordo trying to flush out Legate, but that would be quite silly as she'd cause more harm than anything good.)

There's something honest in Rikae's tone and her being the GW kind of fits well with Mac being the ranger and her being so dismayed at his death. On the other hand, like so many people have said this far, there was little reason for her to reveal. If there had been a reason, she'd surely have revealed earlier and explained it, if she really was the GW. That hastiness and confusingness combined with her rather weird behaviour earlier toDay makes me think she might very well be a wolf causing confusion.

Or then she's just frustrated with all of us for getting Mac killed, does not want to play anymore and is seriously overreacting. But I think she's more calms or sensible than that.

All in all, I'm confused.


edit: xed with Legate and Roa

Yes, you have. However, I've made this very argument myself when a revealed seer has dreamed of me and found me out. (Funnily enough, the seer was Rikae.) So you'll excuse me if I give it little merit.

However, I still don't want to vote for Legate just yet. Somethings he has done have seemed suspicious to me, but I was focused on phantom at the time, so I don't really recall what it was.

Yes, this is what I thought (or outlined by the post above), however, I would still really like to hear her speak. Also because of the fact that then it will be clearer for me, and I could directly say to you others: yes, I KNOW (and not just think, like now) she is lying.

To Roa (seeing the post in the preview window EDIT: I mean in 764): I am not calm, I am hyperactive, and am writing this in quite a hurry (just see how long the posts are). So it moved me in this way. But I wish to be as objective as possible, since Rikae has simply disappeared before she could see my questions - that's bad for this situation, as I said above.

X-ed with Lommy and Roa.

Oh wow!

I just had an idea.

The points Roa made about choosing between Rikae or Legate to lynch set off alarm bells in my head. Not directed at Roa, but at the fact that Rikae's reveal conveniently "forces" the village to choose between two options.

And Rikae revealed right around the time we were all discussing......

Cailin.

Yes, I'm still gnawing on that bone.

This makes Rikae's reveal look suspicious. To me. Because if I'm thinking between Legate and Cailin, well, I think Cailin looks far more evil. Far. More. Evil.

Rikae seems to be more about saving Cailin, when you consider her timing, and yet she hasn't actually said "Don't look at Cailin" cause the best way to get people to NOT look at a player is to make a big deal about another player. Capisce?

I really don't like how everyone's head has been turned away from talking about that. This narrow perspective of "well we can vote Rikae, and waste a lynch on a possible wizard, or we can vote Legate and possibly kill an innocent or happily kill a wolf" is just... makes my breakfast turn over in my stomach.

Oh, and I thought I'd mention this. Lalaith has been screaming EW to me in every single post of hers toDay.

I also just pondered the possibility of Rikae being the EW, but then she'd have very little reason to anything like she just did. Or not any reason I can quickly think of.


edit: exed with Roa, Di and Legate

I don't want to lynch Legate or Rikae. I still want to lynch Cailin.
And here's Lommy, still being as sensible as ever. It's nice to see so many people agreeing with me on this.

The Real Cailín
 

The Rikae grand reveal has confused me as much as the rest of you. I’ve been trying to organise my thoughts about it.

If she is the GW, which she claims, what motive could she have for revealing herself?

- She has not been scried, we know this. She may know the identity of the EW, though. She will challenge him or her tomorrow, as soon as she is able, and wants to help us kill a wolf for certain today.
- If she does not know the identity of the EW, she may prefer to lead us as a known innocent for one more day, or longer if the EW chooses to stay hidden. An interesting move, but not altogether ridiculous.

If Rikae is the EW, what motives could she have for revealing?

- The longer the wizards remain alive, the more of an advantage the EW would seem to have. A new wolf every night (likely enough). The EW will generally profit from staying undercover.
- She may have been scried and knows the GW is going to challenge her tomorrow. She has nothing to lose and wants this last opportunity to confuse and misdirect the village, by pursuing, for example, innocent Legate.

Will we find out if Rikae is good or bad by trying to lynch her, or will we just be sure she is a wizard? I suppose it matters not; the other wizard will know either way and act accordingly.

I love you, little sister. :)

This is exactly what I've been thinking.

Or Rikae may be trying to save Cailin because Rikae is the GW an knows that Cailin is innocent. Don't be hasty on that front.

Since when do Wizards know when the other Wizard scried them? Or the Seer dreamed of them? I don't recall seeing that in the rules.

No, no... that doesn't work.

Which is why I don't trust that thought.

Di - that's a valid point but I can't see why she'd do that. I can't see any reason for wolf/EW Rikae to take such drastic means to take attention away from Cailín. Unless Rikae is a wolf and Cailín's the EW and Rikae knows her identity, but still that might seem a little... drastic? unreasonable? I mean, if I were the GW, I'd have scried Cailín already for a long time ago. She has a sort of wizardish air and I can't say she looks perfectly innocent. (Although, given the schizophrenia, I would really need to look at her more closely to judge her better.)


edit: xed with everybody since my last post

If I said I didn't believe it anymore would you hop onto the bus?

Because I'm perfectly willing to let you drive this thing, so long as it goes where I'm thinking it should go.

It's nice to see you are all so obsessed with me. :p

Did anyone actually read my defence, because it's all quite puzzling to me.

Why would an unsuspected wolf or EW reveal if I was a wolf, merely to save me? I'm already under so much suspicion that there is absolutely no chance of this working. If it works today, it will not work tomorrow. So, Di, you are obsessive, unwilling to debate, and mad.

Somehow Cailín saying "The Rikae grand reveal has confused me as much as the rest of you." does not sit right with me at all. That "me as much as the rest of you" sounds like she would know more about the matter, or hold a special role in this drama. Most of all, it really sounds like she's the EW... :eek:


edit: xed with Cailín and phantom

That's another thing. But on the other hand, she suggests lynching Rikae, although quite plainly without much doubt, at least I find it unlikely for her to be a part of "conspiracy" . Now Lommy is saying this against her, so what if Lommy is part of the conspiracy too... For the sake of it, let me point out a (possibly overstrethed, I am aware) theory: What if Lommy is the EW and Rik is a wolf? It will make sense then when it comes to what I said above.

The thing, what Di says, about out-focusing from Cailín is interesting point.

EDIT: x-ed since Lommy I quoted.

And I wanted to leave for now, at least for a while, but it's not quite good maybe at this situation, however... eh. But maybe if for a moment I leave, if no one has any things to ask me right away or something, I may.

See my below response to Roa. The EW has way more reason to do this than an actual GW. The more I think about it, the clearer it gets.

I'm not. If you'll see, I said that between Cailin and Legate, I find Cailin more evil. C and L had been getting the most suspicion, it seemed, with Rikae being gungho on Legate and phantom/Gwath being gun-ho on Cailin. The GW would want to step in to save good Cailin and get evil Legate lynched, but is that so wise? So early in the day? The GW loses more by revealing.

The EW (gains more by revealing, deflecting suspicion from a wolf, and getting the village to waste a lynch on an innocent or waste it on a Wizard who can't be killed.

Not for any reason I can think of. But if you were the EW, that would be a different thing... (just like I said before, but you might have crossed with that)


edit: xed with Legate and Di

If Rikae is the EW, then she wouldn't risk trying to save her wolf with such a ploy.

(See, phantom, now that I can apply personality, I can make a judgement on what the EW would do.)

If Rikae is a wolf, then it's highly unlikely she knows who the EW is, or who any of her fellow wolves are. And its even more unlikely she would try such a risky move to save them in either case.

If Rikae is the GW, then she may be trying to save the innocent Cailin.

And here's a possibility no one has thought of (intentionally, perhaps?): Rikae may be a gifted, posing as the GW under direct orders to do so, so we can finally have a known wolf in front of us. If she's not answering our questions, then it may be that she doesn't know the answer because the GW didn't tell her everything.

I never hop on buses. Or BANDWAGONS. Which is where this is heading. All that I seen against Cailin so far has not really convinced me she's evil.

Hey that's an excellent point. I think you just made me a fan of this theory.... it might make the most sense. (Although - even in that case, wouldn't she have done her "revelation" more carefully...?)

Anyway, I wouldn't be too worried anyway. We lynch either Legate or Rikae, and we know what the other one is. And ith good luck, we'll find a wolf.


edit: xed with Roa

Di, stop and think. Wolves are replaceable. The EW would not do this to save a wolf. Especially not Rikae, who has totally agreed with me in that past about sacrificing our fellows. (I've been a wolf with her.)

The EW gains nothing by this move. If we lynch Legate, and he's innocent, then we know that she is evil, and she can't go on in secret making more and more wolves. Why risk a possible two or three or even four more wolves to save the life of one? It isn't logical, and it isn't the way Rikae thinks.

I'm going to quickly go through all posts posted that have come during my absence and reply to things I feel I have something to say. This Rikae-Legate thing is surely important, but let's not use all our energy on it. It will just benefit the evil team. The simplest course, anyway, is to lynch either Legate or Rikae.


edit: xed with Roa

I'm not mad, I'm excited. I'm pretty sure I've uncovered an evil plot. :D

(And I LOVE all the drama today. It's what I joined this game for, after all.)

Yes, yes... I'm feeling better and better about this. The people that I generally trust seem to be getting the same exact feeling.

All right- I've pretty much made up my mind.

Rikae is not the GW.

Roa, your thoughts are good, however there's one thing that could be going on if Rikae was on the evil side. Unfortunately I can't say what it is. Or I can say, but I shouldn't.

I want to say it really bad because it's absolutely brilliant (a compliment to Rikae for trying it and to me for thinking of it), but it could seriously play into the Evil team's hands if I were to speak it.

Phantom and Di's exuberance in trying to turn this back to Cailin has me rather convinced. As Lommy said, it's simplest lynch Legate or Rikae. Lynching Cailin won't answer any questions for us.

I can think of two reasons the GW may have revealed:

She wanted to save an innocent.

She wanted to give us a wolf while everyone was still around to vote on the matter.

It's possible that both are true. It's also possible that Rikae is a gifted posing as the GW to achieve both these ends.

Phantom and Di's reluctance to accept that this is a possibility concerns me greatly. Especially phantom. Because that just makes want to believe in Rikae even more.

I can't hang around at the moment, but I'll be back in intervals checking in. To people who AREN'T so hell-bent on getting Cailin, please consider all the possibilities before you simply mistrust Rikae.

If you really think that, then why aren't you considering voting for Legate, who is would be a certain wolf in that case? And why are you focusing on Cailin when you realize that Rikae may be trying to save her because she's innocent? Instead, you're leading everyone to think the exact opposite.

If no one is willing to consider that Cailin is a baddie (perhaps even the EW) then I will have to say... if you think we MUST vote for either Legate or Rikae, I find Rikae to be a wiser choice.

If she's bad, we've revealed the EW. Or killed a wolf.

If she's the GW, we just confirmed what she told us.

If she's a gifted, would she have self voted? Encouraged us to lynch her? Don't think so.

My gut, my impressions from all her posts, tell me Cailin is bad.

You're far more into the cold hard logic game, Roa -- I'm more about smelling evil coming off a person's tone and actions. But I've always known you to be able to get the village on your side, not matter what side you're on, because of how collected you seem. So I'm going to let this matter rest for a bit, and say that if people are going to disregard my suppositions, at least lynch Rikae. I don't think that, whatever she is, we'll be killing an ordo or gifted if we do so.

I'm not sure that Rikae was entirely unsuspected. But I think you would have to be the EW for a wolf to do something this desperate. That assumes, of course, that you, as EW, would have revealed yourself to at least one of your minions. Hmm.

OK I said I'd let this go, but not without one more comment:

Yes, it will. It would tell us who Cailin is; good, bad, wizardly. You can't say it won't answer ANY questions. That's just a completely untruth, no matter what Cailin's role is.

So, IF Rikae is trying to distract us from Cailin with a phony "reveal", then Cailin must be the EW. And if that is the case, tp, then it is useless to try to lynch Cailin and really does make more sense to lynch Rikae, as Roa has pointed out. However, the Rikae-Cailin connection is highly speculative.

That's just it, Di. You can't know that she isn't a gifted. And if she is the GW or a gifted, then not only have we revealed that fact for certain to the EW, not only have we killed a gifted, then we've also passed up a wolf that's been handed to us on a silver platter.

It's better to lynch Legate. In any case, Rikae is not foolish enough to lie about that claim unless she was handing us a wolf to make us believe her. He's stated already that he is not a gifted, or at least not the seer, so we lose that risk right there. It's far less risky to lynch him than her.

Curious: Why not Legate?

I'm sorry, I meant it won't answer any question regarding Legate and Rikae. Not for certain. If she is evil, then all we have regarding Rikae is your and phantom's theory about Rikae trying to protect, which is pretty flimsy.

Roa, are you saying that the EW wouldn´t do anything to save a wolf but the GW would do anything to save an innocent? This just doesn't make sense.
If Rikae is on the evil team, she's got one motive. To wreak havoc and confusion in the vilage. And she's succeeded.
There's another thing. Legate, lets say you are what you say, an ord. Lets say Rikae is lying. In which case she's either a wolf or she's a wizard, but the evil kind. If she's the EW, and we lynch her, she doesn't die. So we think she's the GW. And then perhaps she's planning on turning you in the night, and making her own statements come true. Even more confusion in the village than there is already. Oh hell, oh spite.

For what its worth, Legate, I had been kind of thinking you were innocent. The wolf Legate I played with, before, was urbane, helpful and charming. Who's this rude git, I wondered?
The innocent version?

I never claimed I assumed so. I just wanted to see what turns up if we assume so. And there was nothing interesting, as you see.

I just might have to vote Nilp after all. :mad:

I think that was pretty much all I was talking about yesterDay... :rolleyes: Anyway, her tone/style, mostly, and later the fact that she "suspected" me. Usually she 99% right aabout my role so this total misinterpretation made me rise my eyebrows even more.

Yes, I do. But I don't like the way you're trying to befirend me... I don't trust you.

McCaber, morm and Kath are real submarines. Greenie has slipped under my radar too.

I don't like it how Lalaith is so blindly working on the principle that the EW is dying to find the GW. Surely he wants to find her, but is it his sole scrying principle? I doubt that. After all, he's far less desperate for a duel than the GW...

On Day1 when they get more kills if they all survive the Day? Unlikely.
The simple answer: I was annoyed. I was not sure about Agan's role and it irked me that peple believed me simply because we're RL friends. That doesn't make me infallible about her, wuite the contrary.

That almost freaks even a Finn out... ;) (We have separate keys for ä and ö.)

This is an interesting line, and weird, but it kind of matches with the current speculations about her role...

That was an awesome game, but I wouldn't compare it to this one. I only claimed to be gifted when I was feeling I'd get caught anyway, more to stir the pot than to actually save myself or any of my fellows.

Why Lalaith seems EW ish to me is that she's thinking so much from the Ew perspective. Also, she looks like she was asking advice from Roa the ex-EW.


edit: xed with everything but Di's post after mine...