I know this has been said before, but I am REALLY gald that Haldir died. I mean, he wasn't even supposed to be there in the first place!

I had the opportunity to see TTT again recently and something hit me while watching the elves at Helm's Deep sequence. I finally think I understand why PJ did it.<P>In Edoras you have Aragorn and Theoden butting heads, with Theoden saying "When last I looked, Theoden, not Aragorn was King of Rohan."<P>Then later at Helm's Deep when Aragorn is trying to convince Theoden to send out riders. PJ has changed Theoden from the books, where Theoden is very dependent on Gandalf and Aragorn; Gandalf to tell him what to do and Aragorn to lead the battle.<P>But in the movie PJ has made Theoden a little stronger character wise and he buts heads with Gandalf, Aragorn and even Gimli, when they try to tell him what to do. To all of a sudden to have Aragorn commanding Theoden's army, would seem odd. <P>Enter the elves at Helm's Deep, they are are Aragorn's command. He is their General, yelling out commands in elvish and Theoden commands his own men. Yet is is very evident that Theoden is the supreme commander saying to Aragorn "Aragorn...fall back to the keep, get your men out of there." Of course "your men" refering to the elves under his command - interesting choice of words - lol.<P>By bringing the elves to Helm's Deep, PJ accomplished a couple of things. As was said earlier in this thread in the books we knew the elves were not just sitting back that they were fighting on their own borders. In the movie we see that, abiet in the wrong location. But more importantly, we see Aragorn as the commander of a very powerful army and he is a good one at that. Doing it this way, he has now earned Theoden's respect and sets up his command in ROTK.<P>Sorry for such a long post...but I think I finally understand.

"Another thing - what is this about Haldir talking of "honoring old allegiances" or something like that. The Rohirrim never had any allegiance with elves, never faught "side by side". Phooey!"<P> Didn't you notice Haldir is looking straight at Aragorn when he speaks of the Elves 'old allegiance'. The Alliance was with Elendil and his Heirs, meaning they still have an obligation to support Aragorn. And as he is fighting with the Rohirrim so do the Elves. Besides they can't tell one variety of Men from another anyway

What he probably ment by that 'old allegiances' was not the Rohirrim & elves, but rather men in general & elves. I thought that Helms Deep was acceptable. Mainly because it seemed to it right in with the movie, although I usually don't like it when a large part is added to the movie & wasn't in the books. I'm glad Haldir died if only for this reason. Each of these movies need to have at least one main or important character die, or else it would seem like the charactersa are being protected. Out.

Very good observation FaramirFan.<P>H.C.

Good move. I really enjoyed the addition.<P>I found that the parts I enjoyed the most were the movie only parts, ie. the elves at Helms Deep and Osgiliath.<p>[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: Meela ]

I liked that idea coz i love it when two totally different people(races in this case)team up to destroy evil!!!I find it very touching and it makes me think that maybe peace is possible if we all work together

ok there were soem elves there in the book it says. your axe is comfort enough gimili wish we had a couple houndred more form i think he says the name of the forest btu then he says we only have a couple form ther ei think it was an ok move on the movie. but i did not like the part when hildar died beacuse that was totally not cool epscaily when he was nto kiled in the book he was in book one but nto 2 or 3 ithink so they felt they had to kill him i guess and ot make a point about men and elves dieing toghter i guess. well i was kinda mad at that part i was about to go off in elvish and yes i speak some but this is a good sentence not bad . <P>Elen sila lumenn omentilmo. Mellon en amin lla naa beleghtar.<P><BR>well any ways u guys are cool on this forum and i think u gusy rock talk to u guys later

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It is now the time of men - not elves, their time in ME is past. That is the whole point <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was really consederate of the elves, indeed, to aid the men at Helm's Deep in remembrance of their alliance. Though it was felt all through out the movie that men are inferior, they still helped them, instead of leaving them to their weaknesses. They made the Vala real proud by believing in their Middle Earth brethren <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> PJ has changed Theoden from the books, where Theoden is very dependent on Gandalf and Aragorn; Gandalf to tell him what to do and Aragorn to lead the battle <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>A great observation. I noticed that Theoden is being put on the spot, and I felt that Theoden is not giving orders to Aragorn as a superior:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "Aragorn...fall back to the keep, get your men out of there." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...but do folks notice how each of the major plot changes is accompanied by a line from one of the characters representing shock. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I never thought of it as that way, but now that I think about it, I remember seconding my demotion to Theoden, Merry and Sam while watching the movie. PJ <B>was</B> conscious of these changes by pointing them out using the reacting characters themselves.