I still don't want to live forever, if that counts. Eternity here would be a nightmare (everything's moving away from how I'd like it to be even now and I can't see that improving) and I've a feeling that not to die is to have an incomplete experience of life. Whether or not that's true I couldn't go on forever and never know whether or not there's anything more afterwards.

Interesting. Did he become a judge, a politician or a company chairman? Or did his mind not decay that far? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Butler has something quite thought-provoking to say on the subject in Erewhon. Basically certain people on the island would be born with a particular birth-mark, and they would live forever, but they'd age at the same rate and in the same way as everyone else, gradually becoming more and more senile and decrepit. Of course in reality the body would simply give up sooner or later but it's a good illustration of the pitfalls of eternity, preachy though the style may be.

Interesting topic, Squatter and Rosa Cotton. I have always been terror-stricken by "forever"; I describe it as never-ending serial existence. I don't see much difference between that and "the void"; emptiness. Being a man of The Faith hasn't really made that much difference as far as the terror. The worst part of it is that it's unavoidable. The road DOES go ever on and on. (I knew I could tie Tolkien into this somehow) The only remedy I've ever found for this is "fear not for I am with you". And then I refuse to think about it....

While I fear the unknown, I don't believe in death. Nor time, for that matter.

littlemanpoet, hello! Are you indeed a poet?
I like to write poetry, though I don't know if you could say I'm a poet. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]Topaz's Poetry Board

Nothing really scared me in the books...I dunno why...maybe I have no imagination or something...but...going off into those huge battles....hum...now that's something to be scared of...

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but how does somebody not believe in death?! Could you give an example to a person, that has defied the laws of nature, that has lived forever on, expect of course for whatever god/goddess you happen to believe in. Death happens, its bound to happen sooner or later. Or maybe you mean that your spirit/soul never dies? I remember a quote: .

Please take no offense, I'm just curious on why you do not believe in death. I won't even ask about the Time thing, its a hard and complicated subject. Time is after all a man made thing.

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]

Hi Littlemanpoet! That wasn't Rose Cotton talking about immortality though, that was me, Rosa Underhill! (Yeah, I know, our names are a bit too similar, aren't they?)

Yeah, I used to be terrified of death more than anything, but the fact that God's there at the end made it loose it's power over me completely. As for 'forever', all I wonder is: eventually, will we all get bored? Or worse, will there be another rebellion in Heaven after that thousand years? Well, guess we'll find out...

And the only thing I have no belief in whatsoever is normalcy. If anyone can satisfactorily define "normal" for me, then I might change my mind... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

When orcs were throwing heads over the walls of Minas Tirith... That was just awful...

I'm with you on that one, Balefalathiel. I have a very visual imagination and i was nearly sick at that oint... not scary necessarily, but horrible.

quite so. a lot of people must have visual imaginations... probably those who like tlotr. booya!

that was just... y'know... yuk. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

There's a saying where I come from: "Everyone's queer but thee and me; and even thee's a little bit funny."

It also occurs to me that when I was about nine years old "you're normal" became a common insult at my school.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Heh, somewhat like yon old saying, "I'm a great driver! It's everyone else who's got the problem." [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I tease my friend all the time because she likes to say she's normal. She isn't; no one is.

Zifnab-I do not believe in the common ideology associated with death. As in, for me, death is not the end, it's the beginning. Of course, for someone who loves this world as much as I do, parting with it is not something I take lightly.
At the same time, I do not view my grandfather, for example, as someone who is "dead and gone." To me, dying is being born all over again.
The birth of a child is akin to death, it is the departure from one world, and entrance into another.
And as for time, it is a thing of the mortal world. It will apply to us no longer after we die. Basically, I believe that all of us are eternal, just not in this world (which, and on this I agree with the Squatter, would indeed be terrible).
...OK, now that I am done being thoughtful and deep (and a bit trite [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) for the moment, let me publicly state that Shelob FREAKED THE HELL OUT OF ME. As did the rain of dead men's heads over the walls of Minas Tirith. Although, nothing still compares to the image of the dead men and elves in the marshes. It makes me think of an eternal sadness and horror upon that land, and I can't take it.

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

Let me start out with an apologize, since this has nothing to do with the topic.

Lush-Im not the sharpest tool in the shed. So I would just like to make sure I understand yo correctly...So you believe in Death, but you believe that only the body dies, and like I said your spirit/soul continues to live on in what ever world you believe in. Or do you beleive in rencarntion as your spirit/soul takes another body, for whatever it purposes would be? I agree with about "I don't think of "somebody" as dead and gone". Neither do I, but I was intrigued with your above comment on the "I don't believe in Death". Now, you had to know that would make some people curious! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I totally agree with you about "Time doesnt matter when you pass away", like I said time is a man-made thing, and was not needed at the beginning, But in this society time is one of the most important thing their is, sad to say. Have you ever gone a day, week or even a month trying to get around "time"? I have, and I could not do it. I personally do not wear a watch for I believe that to many people are concerned with "time". But everywhere I look "time" is there.

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]

Hahahahaha, well let's see, I will always say that I "don't believe in death", because on this earth, there is something akin to an anit-death cult. Our actions are mostly guided by the sheer terror of death-this is why we strive for riches and fame, subconsciously believing that they will somehow immortalize us, and this is why we shun old age. I believe both practices to be fruitless, and distracting, and, well, wrong. I come from a culture that is a bit more comfortable with the idea of death, and by stating that I don't believe in it, I really don't, not in the way that death is perceived by the majority of people. This isn't to say that I'm not TERRIFIED out of my mind by it-I am, but I also accept it.
Yes, I knew my comments would draw attention, but then again, I don't shy away from attention either. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Hi back to you, Samwise. Yes, I'm a poet. I have never been published or paid, but I cannot stop writing poetry. It's in the blood. Some of it's even good.

Interesting discussion about time and death. I happen to have written a pretty lousy poem that picks up on some of the themes you guys have been discussing, so here it is in all its glorious badness (seeing as it'll probably never see the light of published day anywhere). [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Unsequenchable God

Oh! To live vividly,
reality layered in
beauty upon beauty
meaning upon meaning
joy upon joy
in trebled delight!

Is not mundane sameness of
sequential existing
a result
not of Time
but of human craving to control?

Of all I have known,
the One part of life that refuses to submit
to any attempts to
ritualize, consecutivize,
is God --
His reality
His presence
His activity
His unadulterated vital
Isness
impacting my now.

Is Time --
God's creation,
or our own?

Is Eternity God's Time,
(day and night, moon and season and year)
what remains when human divisions of time
(seconds, minutes, hours, quarters, biannuals)
are stripped away from life?

Like I said, atrocious. But I do see this division of two kinds of times, that which is in nature and that which is derived from human mechanization (which Tolkien warned us against).

Sorry to get your name confused, Rosa Underhill. I'm with you on the consolation in God. It's the only way I can imagine surviving eternity. And no, I don't think we'll be bored. I think it's going to be full of vivid, vital activity. After all, it's going to be a new heaven AND a new earth. Lots to do! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I really enjoyed your poem "Unsequenchable God", littlemanpoet. I think it fits the discussion good(The topic within the topic). Thank you!

Two types of times, huh, very interesting. I tend to understand that. Nature vs. Human time. But I will not add more to this, maybe it would be best discussed in a seperate post.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

It's hard to say if any of LotR really scared me, I mean beyond the typical adrenaline rush, because I can't really remember the first time I read it. Suspense is a big part of the fear, after all. A contender I haven't heard mentioned would be all the times that Frodo is called on from the "outside" to put on the ring, and is even more visible than before... most of my nightmares have to do with not being able to hide...

I did dream once about LotR, don't remember it very well, just something about the Nazgul but they were only people dressed up or something.

Eternity used to scare the heck out of me, too. I would lie awake at night trying to get my mind around the concept of infinity and I couldn't. Then I stopped trying and I was fine.

(Warning: movie spoiler) First time I watched the movie, the audience applauded when Aragorn chopped of Lurtz's head.

(I've really got to look more carefully before I post, missed a whole page of stuff!)

Normal: a society-inflicted form of measurement, intended to either include or exclude people, to bring a sense of belonging or conformity (depending on your POV). Synonyms: USUAL/ EXPECTED. Antonyms: DIFFERENT/CRAZY.
--from the Dictionary of Kimisms

I have a bumper sticker that says "Normal people worry me." [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

PS. nice poem!

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: KayQy ]

Well, I can say that the whole reading of LotR was great. Nothing scared me, no nightmares anyway. I was saddened, mad at times, afraid for the characters and stuff. I love a good suspense. Well after reading Frank Perritti and listening to some of his stuff in the car driving on a lonesome highway at midnight... I think that you are fearless if you can do that! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

BTW, Poet - that was great. I am also a poet/songwriter. Nothing suitable for this site though.

If you want to read some of my work go to my website @ KingdomWarrior's Poety Page

Same here. Actually, the audience cheered louder when Lurtz was dismembered than they did at the end of the movie.
You haven't lived until you have done that, or something similar.