Gandalf’s speech to the Balrog

As a project for research I found this very interesting. I have not read far into the books, I should say, only the Trilogy and The Hobbit - (the first 4 chapters at that time). But gathering information for this I have relied on quotes of others, knowledge of Tolkien, and other Middle Age style writings.

It is stated by obloquy that “Nar” means FIRE. Thus stated, then Narya is the Ring of Fire. Yet, I do not believe that Narya is the Secret Fire that Gandalf spoke of. It is stated in the appendix that Cirdan the Shipwright gave Narya to Gandalf. If this is true, then Gandalf’s ring was an Elven Ring. The Elven Rings were hidden, only those who possessed (and the others who possessed the rings) knew. Though it is interesting that Glorifindel, (supposed to be Galadriel), revealed her ring to Frodo and Samwise. Nevertheless, let us get back to the topic at hand.

May we take a deviation from the books to explore the elements of the statement? What is Gandalf? He is a Wizard, a Maia. Some have stated that he reminds them of the Old Testament Prophets. To me he seems like Elijah of Old. Let us take a look at that prophet of the Bible.
I am sure that most of you are familiar with this account. Did you notice something though? Elijah spoke. This is the Word of Command that he spoke. By the Word of Command, Elijah called down fire, by the Word of Command Elijah kept the heavens from raining for 3 ½ yrs.

In LotR, Gandalf is the servant of the Secret Fire. I believe that this show that he is the servant of the One who holds the Fire. He acts like the One that holds the Fire, for he is His ambassador.

The next question posed is “Who is the One who holds the Secret Fire?” Voronwestates that It has been stated by many on this board and other Tolkien fans elsewhere that the story of Eru Iluvatar and the creation of Ea, that this, of all things that Tolkien describe, was closest to the Biblical account of the Creation.
In the Scriptures, the Spirit of God, The Holy Spirit, is often represented by Fire or a Flame (Ex 3:2-12, Ex 13:21 Jer 23:29, Matt 3:11, and Act 2:3).

In summary, I know that I used a Scriptural basis for my argument, and I know that Tolkien did not like allegories, but because of his Faith, I do believe that he may unconsciously placed some messages in the books. I believe that Gandalf was a servant of Eru Iluvatar and that He held the Secret Flame, the Imperishable Flame, which is the creative power. By Gandalf being His servant, His ambassador, he had the power to speak the things into existence with the Word of Command. It seems that the thing that he was wielding was his tongue. This contained, his words, the Secret Fire.

Also, just noticed that someone asked what was the Flame of Udûn. Jude 7, states that there is an eternal fire for the damned, the Shadow of eternal death. I believe that this is the Flame of Udûn, the dark fire.

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ]

Very nice points, Joy. Though text from the Bible cant be used to prove points in Tolkiens canon, it is interesting to see the similarities. And let me say, that for only having read The Hobbit and The Lord of The Rings you are very knowledgable.

I just wanted to point out though, that when you said Glorfindel showed Sam her ring, you really mean Galadriel. The names are easy to get mixed up sometimes. Glorfindel was an Elf Lord (male) that lived in the house of Imladris (Rivendell). Galadriel was the Lady of The Wood (Lorien) who held one of the Elven Rings like you said.

As it is known, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and a number of others were the Istari, a special group of Maia sent to contest the power of Sauron. They, origionally, were not not allowed to match him power for power, until Gandalf die and was resurrected. The "secret fire" is referring to Illuvitar's Imperishable Flame. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

I'd confirm all that's been said, and just add that in a moment of confrontation with the Balrog, Gandalf should not be expected to be pedantically precise with his expressions.

In general he is at that moment drawing on his linkage to all that is good and powerful, right to Ilúvatar, to whom through Manwe he is faithful as Olórin. So, it is not about the Ring of Fire or his regular Wizardly ways, by which his Maiarian origins are usually suppressed.

The "flame of Anor" is, perhaps, some spur of the moment piece of poetic license to punctuate the powerful reference to the Secret Fire, which the Balrog cannot overcome; the bottom-line being that you will not get to the Ringbearer! Anor is a word for the Sun at that time (what else, who knows for sure?) But, through Laurelin the Sun is derived from the power of the Ainur, which comes from the Flame Imperishable and thus, Ilúvatar whom they serve.

Also, Westron may not have offered any better references by which Gandalf could make his command and convey his will at the Balrog. It did not seem that Middle-Earthers had a very developed understanding of the Metaphysics behind their World.

The flame of Udûn is a case in point. He is essentially calling the Balrog a Fire of Hell. As a fire demon this is figuratively indisputable. But we really never get much information at all about what "hell" for Arda might be, beyond Melkor as Lucifer-like, and his fortresses not unlike the Underworld. Indeed, the story of Beren and Lúthien is not without echoes of Orpheus. How the Balrogs might fully relate to any such notion of Hell is just a mystery of Tolkien's imagination.

Also, to use the Bible is always a sound way to understand any number of writers, including many who were never anywhere near as pious as Tolkien. One does not need to have fully structured allegories to be greatly influenced by the majesty of the Bible. Both Gandalf and Elrond (to name only two characters) seem reminiscent at times of Hebraic, Hellenistic, Apostolic and Saintly forebears or perpetuators of Early Christianity, as opposed to pagan-like mystics with which they might superficially be compared.

Indeed, Tolkien was in many ways trying to cast pre-Christian (or at least pre-Norman and pre-Carolingian) images and traditions from Northern Europe in a light that were fully amenable to Judeo-Christian ethics and values. A real legendary base for the English.

In summary, I think that with Gandalf and the Balrog, as well as in other places in The Lord of the Rings (e.g., Eye of Sauron, the Redhorn, the Sun on Mount Mindolluin,) fire stands for good or evil in ways not unlike Biblical verses. I can even think of a few Burning (albeit consumed) Bushes.

This is a wonderful thread! Thanks for all the great info and points everyone!

I agree that the Flame of Anor is the Flame Imperishable. It makes perfect sense. Melkor, the greatest of the Valar, desired to posess it because he wanted to be God (or Eru, in this case) and shape the universe according to his will. He was, of course, unsuccessful in his search for this Fire of Creation, and that maybe have greatly spurred his arrogance and rebellion, thinking that since he was the greatest Vala, he should rightfully posess the Flame.

I believe that the Flame can also be symbolic as well as literal. By the will of Ilúvatar, all evil is turned to good in the end, and he is pure good, through and through. By declaring that he is a servant of it, Gandalf is indeed saying that he faithfully serves Eru, and works solely for the good of the universe. The Flame of Anor, the Flame Imperishable,the fire of creation could represent what is light, or all existing goodness. Ilúvatar sent the Istari to help Middle Earth in the most desperate, urgent time of need, and it makes sense that they would swear allegiance to him (Ilúvatar) as well as swear allegiance that they were fighting for the good, light side; they were fighting to defeat darkness in order for good (which was Eru's will) to prevail.

I know that this may sound really crazy, but maybe when Gandalf said "The dark fire shall not avail you, Flame of Undûn, he meant that the Flame Imperishible is dark in that it is very powerful and good and it will overcome the evil of Melkor and all his devices. I don't know. It's just a thought- just my personal interpretation.

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Maybe "The Flame Of Anor" has to do with Minas Tirith, since it was once Minas Anor before Minas Ithil became Minas Morgul. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Hey guys, something came up which was rather interesting and I think relevant to this when discussing a related issue and I thought you guys might find this an other factor rather interesting and perhaps a further point of debate. I will repost a portion my response where I put forth a specific possibility:

Oh, dear, my head is spinning with all these fires and flames.

Even the folk who wrote the guide-books seem uncertain about a lot of this.

This is from Robert Forster:

"Udun" means the source of the dark flame of the Balrogs, "possibly Utomno", "possibly the darkness of the Spirit of Melkor. Udun in Sindarin means "un-West". It means the same as "Utumno" which is "not-valley" in Quenya. Utumno is the first dwelling of Melkor in Arda.

Getting confused? Here's more:

Flame Imperishable: the creating spirit of Iluvatar, by which the Ainur and Ea were made, possessed by Iluvatar alone. "Also called the Imperishable Flame, the Fire, and perhaps the Flame of Anor" (nice hedging there!) See also Secret Fire

Secret Fire: the Holy Spirit, the power giving substance and life to the Creation of Iluvatar. "It was this light, also called the Flame of Anor (perhaps loosely) that Gandalf served, and the evil followers of Melkor and Sauron envid and feared.) (Me--that perhaps loosely means they fdged again.)
Most probably the same as the Flame Imperishable.

Now my head hurts even more.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit.

In the section about the Istari in the Unfinished Tales it says that the Istari all swore allegiance to the sun, which was a representation of the power of Iluvatar. Although how the sun is a representation of the power of Iluvatar escapes me. As has been said the sun is the last fruit that the tree of Laurelin bore. It was set in a vessel, hallowed by the Valar, and guarded by the Maia Arien. The only reason I could think of, for the sun being a symbol of Iluvatar, is it is the brightest object in Middle Earth; it mirrors the flame imperishable that Iluvatar set to burn in the center of Ea. Although the sun is a relatively new creation, compared to the flame imperishable at least. So in effect, Gandalf is a wielder of the power of Iluvatar and also a servant of it.

This is a very interesting thread!

I think Gandalf's words on the bridge were actually blows in a battle that had already been joined. Wizards use words of command, as well as channeling power through staffs and so forth. I do not believe Gandalf would have repeated himself-- each word he spoke, he spoke to repel the Balrog's attack. From the moment the Balrog laid its hand on the door of the chamber, they had been joined in a bitter battle of spirit and will as well as sword and whip, with a brief respite while the Balrog shook off the cave-in and Gandalf and the company fled to the bridge. Therefore, I don't believe Gandalf had the leisure to say anything twice, essentially, 'I am a servant of the [flame imperishable], wielder of the [flame imperishable].' I think that one of those terms referred to the flame imperishable, but not both. Wasting words during a duel of Maias would be suicide. I do think 'Secret Fire' refers to the flame imperishable. I think that 'Flame of Anor' refers to Narya, the ring of fire.

Why would Gandalf refer to a secret ring in the presence of his bitter enemy? To direct its power at that enemy. 'I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.' That was Gandalf's plan in a nutshell. Either the Balrog's knowledge of Narya would die with him, or Gandalf himself would die. (In the event, it was both.) If Gandalf had died and the Balrog lived, it would have found and looted Narya whether Gandalf mentioned it or not, just as the one ring was looted from Sauron's body.

Narya's power: Celebrimbor might not have been a match for Feanor, but he made the three using knowledge he had gained from Sauron, although Sauron never touched or corrupted the rings. Sauron was a match for Feanor. Could Galadriel have held the borders of Lorien against a Balrog using Nenya? I think she might have had a shot. Narya's power was directed at rekindling hope and reviving determination. Much of the power of the minions of Morgoth, Sauron and the Balrogs, as well as the minions of Sauron was in their will and negative spirit. The Nazgul killed most terribly by sending their vicims into a lethal delusion of despair with the Black breath. Most of what we hear of the Balrogs is pure physical badness, whips of fire, etc, but given that they are defined as corrupted spirits, I think that the negative force of their charisma was as deadly a weapon as their whips of fire. It's similar to the way few orcs could withstand the sight of Aragorn's face in battle. So, if the Balrog's power at the spirit-level is a force of concentrated despair, similar to the Black Breath but more powerful, then a ring that rekindles the flame of hope might be very effective. So, on that bridge, Gandalf was simultaneously parrying both the Balrog's flaming sword and shadow of despair with Glamdring and the fire of Narya, and all this whilst preparing to cut the stones from under his enemy's feet.

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

From what I've gathered,,,,,
When Gandalf says he is the "Wielder of the flame of Anor." He is referring to his sword Glamdring. And Anor simply means Minas Anor(later Minas Tirith). I believe I read this in one of the HOME but i'm not sure which one. Anyone else have an oppinion on this?

Some people thinks that Anor and/or the flame of Anor has its name because of the cityname of Minas Anor, but it is the reverse. It is the cityname that comes from the word Anor, meaning sun. And I doubt there is any power in Minas Anor, that could have helped Gandalf when he was duelling a balrog. It is probably correct when assumed that the flame of Anor has something to do with either Ilúvatar or the Valar, since they are the only one with the power to help him at that time.

AAAHhh,,,,that does make more sense. Since we're all talkin bout maias ,, i have a question. Is it possible that hte Watcher In The Water could be a maia enigma as ungoliant? IF anyone has any information on the Watcher In The Water please respond.

This is one of the classic threads that I don't want to see die [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

This thread might answer a few questions that I see coming up now.

Elendur, your idea is certainly plausible.

I think Gandalf was simply saying that " You know the 'light' of morgoth will prevail over the Light of Eru.

The most enlightening part of Joy's biblical meanderings were the part at the end:

Excellent point - I hadn't thought about Hell before, because as far as I know there is no Hell as such in Middle-Earth's afterlife. Hell is embodied by Mordor, or by Angband/Utumno/Anfauglith. But we may possibly infer that there was a Hell, or a Dark Fire, that the Balrogs served. Perhaps they were some kind of cult worshipping this Dark Fire. They certainly seem to be quite distinct from the more powerful Sauron, who embodied many forms. And from what Gandalf says, as soon as they are destroyed they will "go back to the abyss prepared for [them] and their master".

Possibly Melkor/Morgoth made a Dark Fire in mockery of the Flame Imperishable that he could not find? Perhaps this thing was real, and in Utumno/Angband, and possibly later Barad-Dur (although the Balrogs were really servants of Morgoth, and after his defeat fled and hid instead of serving Sauron).

It seems almost crystal clear that Gandalf as a servant of Iluvatar was a servant of the Secret Fire/Flame Imperishable, an authority that could be held only by the Ainur that descended into Ea. The Flame of Anor is more cryptic because he is said to be its "wielder". It seems likely to me, though, that this is an extension of the Flame Imperishable theme, and the acknowledgment that he has been given power to exercise his authority. Possibly Saruman or the other Istari could have claimed the same, although it is unlikely they would have done so. Saruman may have tried to persuade the Balrog to join him, or at least not to hurt him. I'd like to see what Radagast would've done! Run home to momma, I think. I think that Gandalf by saying that the Dark Fire "will not avail" the Balrog is saying the equivalent of "my dad can beat up your dad", and hoping that since he serves a higher and more powerful purpose, he will win.

Which echoes what Nar was saying about the power of words in Gandalf's magic. I think his whole spiel was a form of taunting, and an attempt to empower himself, like "I think I can, I think I can!" The little wizard that could. And he did. Go Gandalf! Also, I don't think that he could have communicated telepathically with the Balrog. They weren't really on the same wavelength. cf Gandalf's words to Frodo about Bilbo and Gollum having some kind of understanding, since they were so similar.

The light of Morgoth will prevail over the Light of Eru? Did you mean that or was it a mistake? Well, whatever you mean I think it was the complete opposite. Lindil:Sorry if I misunderstood your meaning [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] I'm afraid my comprehension skills aren't working so well today.

Glamdring? Well it could be a possibility but consider this: Glamdring (as we recall from The Hobbit) was a weapon stolen by the Cave Trolls and as Elrond says means 'Foehammer'.

Anor:The name for the Sun in the Sindarin language. It appears in many names, including Minas Anor (correct!), the original name for Minas Tirith, meaning 'Tower of the Setting Sun'. It is also seen in the flower-name elanor, 'sunstar', and in the title Gandalf claimed for himself on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, 'wielder of the flame of Anor'.

I strongly agree.

Well, I think this has gone back and forth a lot, but I'll add my voice.

Reading the Silmarillion, you learn that the sun (unlike in many other mythologies) is basically left-over from the original lights of the world, the trees in Valinor, and so saying he wields "the fire of the sun" may mean that he wields the power of "good" fire related to the trees, but I don't think it can be the same thing as the Secret Fire/Flame Imperishable that he is a servant of. That, basically, means he's a servant of life, good, and the wishes of Illuvatar and Manwe, who sent him to ME. As has been noted, this is all a powerful contrast with the flame of Udun and his dark fire. Has to be one of my favorite scenes in the books, and definitely my fave from the films.

About the ring, he never seems to use it, and Elven rings (well, even the One) are usually more subtle than simple flame-enhancing weaponry. I bet it doesn't hurt to have it, though... He doesn't wear it in the film, though, maybe PJ forgot about it. Galadriel has hers (in the extended version). [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

About Feanor vs. Balrogs, and Gandalf vs. Balrog as well: Maiar (and even Valar) are much closer in power to elves and men than we tend to think (at least, physical, fighting power). At least, no-one ('cept maybe Eru) can "snap his fingers and make someone disappear" in an omnipotent sort of way. I mean, Fingolfin fights Morgoth and wounds him and resists his strength pretty impressively. But then, Fingolfin is a bad mother... for an elf. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ February 14, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

You're cool Dain [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] .

I don't think PJ forgot about the Ring of Fire......Maybe it might be in ROTK?

Quite true.

I'm not so certain Gandalf is so close to the sun, so to speak. I'd tend to say by wielding the flame of Anor, he meant the ring, because from an 'elemental' standpoint, he as Olorin was a servant and helper of Manwe, who was the lord of winds. This of course explains Gandalf's friendship with the great Eagles, (though as Gandalf the Istari he is somewhat different from Olorin). Limited to the confines of human physicality, he could not truly wield flame in the same manner one would expect, although in "The Hobbit" he threw down bolts of flame at the howling Wargs and ignited and killed tons of them. But spirit of fire, he is not. Which is why I tended to say the ring Narya, is the flame of Anor. Of course, Vilya was not the water droplet of Anor, nor was Nenya the Adamant of Anor, so it doesn't truly make sense. Of course, the Balrog is flame of Udun, because Balrogs have always represented ravaging fires, and they dwelt in Hell (whether the depths of the earth, or Utumno, or of the later wastes and gates of Angband. Udun is another name for the great volcanic ring that acted as the gates to Mordor, but Sauron was not in command of any of the Valaraukar, ever, for his own purposes. Servant of the Secret Fire? This could not refer to his being Istari, as Radagast was sent to deal more specifically with nature, while Gandalf specialized in aiding Men (and Hobbits), and Saruman elves. So what secret fire, did he serve? The sun was hardly a secret, his ring however, was kept secret until the very end, so I'll say again I tend to believe that the ring is what he refers to.