Shouldn't that be Thangorodrim? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I always knew that Manwë was up to no good, but this, this takes the cake! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Sorry about that- thanks, guys, and don't mind me. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Yeah, definately Saeros! Although this obscure Manwe-capture might take priority! [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

One of my friends who has read LotR was genuinly shocked when I mentioned there were evil Elves...guess it's a good thing I didn't tell him some of them were incestuous then (with disasteorus results [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] )...

I nominate Turgon. For not letting Hurin into Gondolin straightaway. "Remember the Fen of Serech", indeed. Bah. One of the most ungrateful acts ever committed in Middle Earth.
And I would also like to confess that while dislike is too strong a word, I've never really participated in the love affair most readers seem to have with Frodo. I find him a bit dull and worthy, and nowhere near as endearing as Bilbo. Elijah Wood's portrayal did little to change my mind.

But that whole deal with Hurin and Turgon was about saving a remnant of the Eldar. Hurin then completely jeapordised (sp?) his very own idea by sniffing about the borders of Gondolin.

Turgon was harsh to a friend, but only for the protection of his people.

I don't care. It was a really mean-spirited thing to do.
But I agree with you about Mim. He always struck me as a rather pathetic figure and I felt sorry for him. He and his sons were after all the last of their kind, a lonely thing to be.

Definatly Mim the Petty-Dwarf. Never really liked the Dwarves of Nogrod either.

I have to say my least favourite character in LOTR is Bill Ferny. He's a downright creep. Also Elrond. He doesn't help at all! He could've done alot in the war and helped Gondor and Rohan with Rivendell elves and keep many lives from being wasted. That's all I have to say.

Wha?! Coming from someone named after Tom Bombadil?!

Fingon the Valiant was a noble king/prince who did the best he could with clear and unquestionable intentions - as righteous or more so than his cousins, and most other characters in The Silmarillion. Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, could not even defeat Fingon - it took two balrogs.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:56 AM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Legolas ]

I think the character in LOTR that I dislike the most is Denethor. I mean a guy who is willing to burn his own son alive is pretty sick and twisted. And also the fact that he thought one son was better than the other and he wished that Boromir had stayed and Faramir had gone with the Fellowship and died shows some real "love" there.

And then sending Faramir off to take back a city that was over run with orcs that just wasn't going to be taken back? All he cared about was that he stayed in power as the steward. Though I myself think he thought he was king. But hey that's just me.

"That still counts as one!"~Gimli [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I must say Wormtounge. He was a worthless snake who betrayed his own King to get a little power from Saruman. iF Saruman had succeeded, I doubt he would have given Grima any power anyway.

As you may be able to see, i have strong views about the Rohirrim.

Ioreth !!!

Graarrggh, burárum! She is so annoying! I wish that Treebeard would stomp into town and just slap her! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

But it seems as if most people dislike the evil characters. Hmm... guess this makes me one mean platypus.

Faramir in my opinion actually isn't very likeable when we first meet him. He has all the haughtiness of an Aragorn, and we don't really know him yet. I guess like Sam (and unlike Frodo), I don't trust him fully from the start. But later when we see Pippin's description of him, and his bravery in the retreat from Osgiliath and the Causeway Forts, he is great! But I just thought that I'd mention he starts out as not very likeable.

Saeros! Eeeewwww... :p I also dislike Mim, Radaghast, and Bill Ferny.

I have to agree with others. I dislike Wormtongue... the only good thing that that guy did was kill off Saurman for good! But I just didn't like him, I even think I liked him better in the film than in the book because it just seemed like he had a larger part. But, yes, he has to be the first obscure character that I don't like that popped in to my mind. I really don't have an extreme dislike towards anyone else (in the book at least, the film is another story...) :cool:

Arguing the Negative
 

Interesting that many here name Tom Bombadill. The Old Forest holds yet another character, one more obscure than he. Goldberry.

I suppose my frustrations with her arise from two points. I find some of the qualities Tolkien ascribes to her embarassing. (Some I like, I hasten to add.) And I dislike the way she is simply dropped, from the post dinner conversations with the hobbits and from the book's conclusion, where Tolkien attempts to tie Tom into the story's end but completely omits any mention of Goldberry.

It seems to me that Tolkien clothes the Persephone myth with all the sumptuous accoutrements of a Martha Stewart refining the art of dinner presentation. I don't think it is the concept of her, a character pointing clearly to fantasy and mythology, that bothers me so much as it is the actual practice of describing her.

And lest I be criticised, let me say I think the idea of a couple creating convivial dinners is not the fault. I enjoy Ann and George Edwards tremendously in Mary Russell's The Sparrow. Now there's a host and hostess who create supurb conditions for the enjoyment and exercise of human social intercourse--warm, witty, charming, endearing, neither sentimental nor perfect--the stuff that molds kindness and friendship and fellowship. Maybe it is the oxymoron of "so fair was the grace of Goldberry and so merry and odd the caperings of Tom." Maybe it is that I wish there was something more perilous to her character, something grounding her more thoroughly in the realm of true fairy.

Yet though, this could simply be the effect of an embarassment of riches. A fertile imagination, playing with so many materials, and needing yet more story to bind them.

For me, it would be Ar-Pharazon beyond a doubt.

I'm going to go more obscure than that and name the Ruling Queens of Numenor - all three of them.

• Tar-Ancalime was a nightmare. She was surrounded by some pretty spiteful people (both her parents, and her husband), but she flipped from 'Dad should have given Mum her way' to 'everyone must do things my way', up to and including 'no woman of my house can get married'. Note that both of her granddaughters flatly refused to take the throne (and yes, they too were subject to the 'no marriage' rule ).
• Tar-Telperien, great-granddaughter of the above, was insanely prideful. Her reign is characterised by refusals: she refused to marry, refused to honour the alliance with Lindon, and ultimately refused to yield the sceptre before her death. There's a reason for my 'Witch-Queen of Numenor' theory.
• Tar-Vanimelde, nearly a thousand years later, was useless. She didn't rule at all, allowing her husband to do so in his stead, ultimately leading to his usurpation of the sceptre after her death. You could read her as being silenced by an overbearing husband - except that Tolkien makes a point of telling us that she just didn't want to bother.

Between them, I think the three thoroughly poisoned Numenor's view of women in power. I think their awfulness made it easier for the people to accept Pharazon's usurpation of Miriel's power (and in fairness, from a Numenorean perspective, an elf-loving Tar-Miriel would have been Terrible Queen Number Four), and I think it also led directly to Elendil's/his successors' revocation of the New Law of Succession. Without them, there could have been Queens Regnant of Gondor, Arnor, and Arthedain, and Chieftainesses of the Dunedain.

(From an external perspective, I almost wonder if Tolkien created them specifically to justify the fact that he hadn't given Gondor any ruling queens...)

hS

I disagree. She was supposed to redeem Numenor, not destroy it, unlike her power-greedy idiot husband. He elevated Sauron to his chief councilor, after all. And we know what happened to last three people who let someone with an evil heart advise them. Then again, he himself had an evil heart too. As one fan put it: 'Who does he think he is - Maeglin?'

For he too married his close kin. He was surrounded by like-minded people, who cheered for his act of marrying close kin like it is nothing out of the ordinary, despite there being a precedent to it being unacceptable (Silmarillion, chapter 16).

That might be part of the reason I hate him, actually. He was lauded for this, while Lomion - his predecessor - fell into infamy for attempting to do the same thing. Another reason is Tar-Miriel herself, as he took her chance to rule (and redeem the land and it's people) away from her. Say what you want about me, but I stand by the characters I like.

I think you've misinterpreted what I said. By 'from a Numenorean perspective' I meant that most of Numenor was King's Men by this point, so a second ruler from the Faithful would be a bad thing from their point of view.

hS

Not to be mean or anything, but I don't care what they think. :)

That's okay; I doubt they worry overmuch about your opinions either. :)

It's still an interesting question: if Ancalime, Telperien, and Vanimelde had been good rulers, would even the King's Men have been more inclined to press for Tar-Miriel to be allowed to take the sceptre in her own right? Would she have been more able to leverage her position to refuse Pharazon's demand of marriage? That very much does depend on how they think.

(Of course, if Ancalime had been nicer, her granddaughter would probably have been the second Ruling Queen, and the whole Line of Numenor would be different. So maybe it's best not to think too hard about it...)

hS

'If X was in a different situation, would they have turned out differently?'

For most of my favorites, and many others, the answer would have been 'yes'. And that's why we have fanfiction. For instance, I can imagine Tar-Miriel ruling as she should've; I could imagine Curse of Morgoth being lifted; I can imagine Lomion as a good person; I can imagine Maedhros with both hands intact etc., but that's neither here nor there.

But "if X was in this specific different situation, how would they have turned out differently?" is a fun question (as is the reverse: "how would X's situation have to change to get them to turn out in this way?"). Numenor was a pretty nasty place by Tar-Miriel's time, and I'm not at all sure small shifts would make much of a difference. If the King's Men are powerful, and Pharazon is their leader, it's very hard to give Miriel the sceptre.

(The simplest shift might actually be to kill her father sooner! Pharazon was in Middle-earth until a few years earlier, when his father died unexpectedly. If Gimilkhad was still alive when Tar-Palantir died, the rebellion against Tar-Miriel would have looked very different. You might end up with Pharazon and Miriel as opposing rulers in a civil war, with Miriel taking refuge in Andunie...)

hS

Pharazon could have been removed permanently too. All in takes is one individual slipping in, slitting his throat in his sleep, and slipping out. His death would mean the sceptre would fall to his closest living relative: his wife. Namarie, Pharazon. Hello, redemption. One of Lords of Andunie could have done this. They would be ready to sacrifice their lives to protect Numenor.