Based on the limited information supplied (basically from Gandalf), it was Saruman. Everything else is conjecture, which is fine I suppose; but looking at the evidence, nothing else makes sense. It was not a 'shadow' of Saruman, but his actual physical manifestation, because the horses were driven off. Unless, of course, the horses were 'spooked' by a spook.

Please, resume your arguments.

Perhaps it was the spirit of Saruman, the very one that had bewitched Theoden, and on the way back to Isengard having achieved what evil it required. Though this theory reminds me very much of the film more than anything.

And we know how closely that fit Tolkien's works...:rolleyes: ;)

One cannot rule out that Saruman could spirit walk. What else was it that the Men of Rohan thought they saw of Saruman wondering their country, but never getting a sniff of him truly? For Saruman to physically walk the lands of Rohan alone would bear the risk of him being captured or killed, and I wager that Aragorn would have caught him in the dark, be it in a wood or not.

Why not? How would you back up such a claim when some nitpicking cynical skeptic..for instance, someone like me ;)...asked how you arrived at such a declaration?

I completely disagree. It wasn't until a few months or days before these days that Theoden would have taken action or permitted any action against Saruman - if he ever would, especially when he was still a thrall of Wormtongue. And what evidence do we have that Saruman non-physically wandered the land, and no one was the wiser? Sure, he spied out secrets, but he had time and help in doing so.

To quote Gandalf the White:
Friends don't let friends spirit walk. ;)

Anyway, like I'm been saying, we can speculate on things, but we need to have some evidence from which to extrapolate.

One should not rule out a possibility unless it can be proved impossible! Could the power of Saruman be measured to such an extent as to rule out a relatively basic operation as creating a spirit of himself in other lands?

Agreed. But one also should not consider something to be probable just because it is possible.

And given your statement, I would posit that the old man is actually Fengel. Possible? But of course. Prove that it's not him while I get ready to add another possibility to the list.

There is more evidence from the text to support the view that the Old Man in some shape or form was Saruman, of course. My view is that it was a spirit of Saruman, rather than the physical form. The text does, to some extent, support this view, in the eyes of Gimli at least.

Not really. The Three see an old man. If they knew it were Saruman, they would have stated thus. The old man looked like Gandalf, and as the Grey One was a wizard, they assumed that this old man may have been Saruman as (1) they were near to Saruman's abode, (2) they'd been chasing the band of the White Hand for days, and so had White Wizard on the noggin, and (3) didn't know of every possible character alive (or possible) in Middle Earth at that time from which to choose. The number of old men known to Gimli and Legolas must have been limited, if they knew any at all, and as Lindir says in Rivendell:

...meaning that these two could, like Elrond regarding hobbits, have no clue regarding the variations in old male humans and/or those that appear thus.

Had they known it to be Saruman, they would not have asked Gandalf (which they too confused as possibly just some old man) who it may have been. Even Gandalf does not know with any certainty, as he says something like, 'then I guess you must have seen Saruman.' Maybe this creature that they saw is a one-shot, much like Bombadil but with much less documentation.

Of course I'm just arguing the other side. :)

Again, interesting. I would like to read that evidence, if you have time or could point me in the right direction.

Please provide textual evidence that the 'spirit' of Saruman bewitched Theoden. According to Unfinished Tales, Tolkien ascertains that Grima poisoned Theoden, and then Wormtongue used his influence on the drugged king to further Saruman's interests in Rohan. I believe you are having yet another movie moment.

I agree with your assumptions. Theoden, under the influence of Grima, forbade any action against Saruman, even though in September of 3018 Gandalf had sought an audience with Theoden (which was at first denied), and he eventually told the king that he had been held captive by Saruman in Orthanc, but Theoden was incapable of making decisions and deferred always to Grima.

After Theodred's murder (Saruman sent the force of orcs to the Fords of Isen with strict orders to kill Theodred), Erkenbrand assumed control of Rohan's forces and sent word to Meduseld for more troops, but he was denied by Theoden (at Grima's insistence). In essence, thereafter Eomer basically broke a royal edict by attacking the Orcs who held Merry and Pippin captive. He was then arrested on Grima's initiative for defying the King's orders.

It is obvious that anyway laying hands on Saruman's person would have been at least imprisoned, or more likely summarily executed by the order of Theoden. In any case, there is little evidence in the text that Saruman wandered about Rohan in spirit form, and if there is, I should like to see it.

Personally, I find the HoME books interesting but not necessarily a good guide to what Tolkien's final thoughts in all matters might be, but there is a passage in "The Treason of Isengard" that has been influential in my thinking on this matter:

This does not answer the question for certain, of course, since it is Christopher's speculation concerning his father's intention, but the concept of the person seen at the fire being a "vision" created by thought was JRRT's, not his. In my own thought, if this was indeed a "projected" image and not a real person, and if it is indeed of Saruman rather than Gandalf (which, be it physical or illusory, JRRT seemed most inclined to identify it as Saruman; it shows up repeatedly in notes and drafts), it feels more logical (to my mind at least) for it to originate from Saruman rather than Gandalf. This may be because Saruman demonstrated both keen interest and impatience in leaving Orthanc to gather news, or perhaps because he has a palantir at his disposal. But the notion of the old man being non-physical does have some substantiation, however minimal.

That has already been answered in the very first thread post. A phantom = a spirit? Not impossible.


If Theoden was poisoned, it could have killed him given his age. And how did Gandalf manage to wear off the poison by his appearance alone in the Golden Hall? Whatever you are ascertaining above, give more detail please. Quote the full text from the source.

Sorry; I'm not willing to make that leap without further evidence. Gimli's remark is not that of an expert. He uses the word phantom as he's not sure how to describe the event otherwise. Later he wants to look for boot prints, which, if he truly believed it was a phantom/spirit/non-corporeal being as you believe, then he wouldn't have thought to do so.

On the other hand, I was reading the FotR chapter, "A Journey in the Dark," where the Fellowship are attacked by those wolf creatures. These are physical creatures, as they are harmed by physical weapons, but disappear at morning's light, and so may be more phantom-like.

This, to me, is some evidence that such things such as phantoms can exist, though it still does not explain Saruman's appearance.

The quote provided by Ibri is in my opinion of great importance, as we see that neither Tolkien nor his son seem to have had a clear idea about what the old man represented, although indeed it does seem to point to a physical presence of Saruman. However, it also shows that a phantom, or a projection of Gandalf are possibilities.

I will indeed supply you with the text (although I've seen neither hide nor hair of any textual proof I asked you to submit regarding Theoden being 'bewitched' by Saruman's spirit):

As you can see, there is never a direct reference to Saruman regarding Theoden's stuppor (drowsiness, a sure sign one is drugged), and Grima is held responsible for the prolonged and addled dependence of Theoden. In addition, Theoden himself uses the word 'leechcraft', which by definition refers to archaic medicinal practices. In an analogical sense 'honey in the ear' is whispered lies as well as a non-invasive method of introducing poison into the body.

Far be it for me to argue with the Professor, but I would think that 'poison' is too strong a word. Drugging need not be poisoning at some dosage, as we acetaminophen users know. Could Grima been 'dosing' Theoden with some type of narcotic that dulled his mind?

But pharmacopeia doesn't seem like Saruman's thing, but more like something Radagast would use. Could it have been more of the psychic drugging, like the mental abuse a torturer uses to break the will of a captive - nothing physical, just relentless words that darken the listener's skies?

If it truly were a physical poison, then how did Gandalf cure such a thing, as we don't see him curing anything, even the Black Breath, later in the Houses of Healing?

The word 'poison' is an older word than 'drug' (poison is the Middle French variant of the Latin 'potio' or potion as we know it, whereas drug is derived from the Middle-English 'drogge' and dates to no earlier than the 14th century, but 'poison' can be found in Middle-English texts as early as the 11th century). Knowing Tolkien's penchant for a turn of a word, the use of 'poison' (and he would know it was a derivative of the stem of 'potion') can mean a 'liquid dose', and there is also the metaphoric meaning as in 'to poison one's mind'. Therefore, it would seem that Tolkien would prefer to use the older term and its double meaning, just as Theoden speaks of 'leechcraft' (and the word 'leech' fits Grima nicely, doesn't it?), rather than more modern medical terminology.

I have not heard that Radagast was into psychotropics (but, of course, Hobbits were into 'shrooms). It would seem to me that Saruman would indeed engage in developing poisons, or mind-altering drugs, as part of his studies (after all, he was pretty handy with gunpowder, another newfangled innovation). The wording Tolkien uses regarding Grima and poisoning seems to indicate that the original malady Theoden suffered was either 'induced' or 'increased' by Grima's poison or potion, but that the actual prolongation of this malady was due more to Grima's subtle and insidious mind manipulation rather than regular dosing; hence, when Gandalf drags Theoden out into the sunlight, the king was not necessarily under the influence of any mood-modifier, and therefore is able to eventually stand without assistance.

From a strictly deductive standpoint, I don't think any magic or Sarumanic incorporeal manifestations were necessary in debilitating Theoden.

Saruman may not have been into the use of poisons on his enemies, but apparently, Grima was. At the very beginning of "The Battles of the Fords of Isen" in UT, Tolkien writes:

I wasn't looking for that, but happened to be collecting books scattered around the house and came upon my old beater copy of UT, which, of course, I had to leaf through. That passage just happened to catch my eye; make of it what you will. :)

This suggests to me an interesting interpretation of the old man, although one that I am hard pressed to provide any evidence for. The thought does arise, however: Why would Saruman bother to personally visit the campsite on the borders of Fangorn if he has a Palantir at his disposal? Now it may not always be straightforward to bend the Palantir to one's will, but given Saruman's intense desire to know what happened to his raiding party, it is actually hard to imagine that he was not busy using the Palantir he possessed to this end.

Now why the use of the Palantir by Saruman, if successful in locating and seeing the three on the borders of Fangorn, would result in a vision, I don't know, and there is no direct support to this. But it seems likely that in one way or another, he was "bending his thought" in that direction, so an evanescent phantom of him might be reasonable, whether aided by the Palantir he held or not...

CSteefel

I wonder if Saruman might not have been afraid to utilize the Palantír of Orthanc at that point. He had been communicating with Sauron for some time, and Sauron had been able to dominate him through it. Saruman had to have been well aware that Sauron could wrest control away from him at any time and demand an account of his doings. Recall what Pippin reported his Questioner saying during his glance at the Stone.

TT p. 219
Sauron at first thought the surveyor was Saruman, and it appears Saruman had avoided using his Stone for some time.
As to the theory that Saruman had somehow been able to conjure a phantom of himself through the Palantír, it is said, I think, in UT that on their own the Stones could only see. No actual communication was possible with anyone by use of a Stone unless the surveyor could find someone who was also using one at the same time. I don't see how any type of image projection would have been possible.

So, it wasn't a high-def Palantir then?

But I agree with you, the Palantiri were not astral projectors. What one viewed in the stones could be manipulated -- as Sauron did to Denethor -- but Sauron did not jump out on the Steward in his room in the White Tower.

Yes, good points--it seems you shot down my (short lived and speculative) theories.

I can find nothing about the Palantir working as "projectors", as you mentioned. Obviously they could be used to see, suggesting that Saruman could have spied on the three travelers (in the UT, there is a detailed description of how Denethor might have seen what was happening in Rohan, including "zoom ins"). But any form of communication/projection of an image seems to require a second Palantir. But as you also suggest, there is good evidence that Saruman had not used the Palantir recently, fearing rightfully that as soon as he did so, Sauron would appear. This certainly would have been the last thing he wanted, since it would have presumably given away the fact that he had organized a party to try to obtain the ring for himself.

On the subject of phantoms or visions, there is the case of where Sauron in the 1st Age managed to fool Gorlim, one of Barahir's group in Dorthonion, by presenting a vision or phantom of his wife Eilinel. This would indicate that a Maiar sorcerer is capable of such "magic", so maybe Saruman is as well. However, this doesn't really explain what would be Saruman's motivation for presenting a vision to the three travellers--what purpose is accomplished?

He walks very softly and carries a big stick
 

I don't have my book in front of me, but in the Chapter 'The Voice of Saruman,' we learn that Saruman has the ability to just 'pop up.' Reread the text where he is summoned by Gandalf. It goes something like, 'everyone is astonished as Saruman just appears, as no one heard him approach.'

So, by whatever means, if he can show up in a 'poof' kind of way for a company that includes humans, hobbits, horses, a dwarf, an elf, some ents and a white wizard - and be there physically - surely he can do it in reverse, and just poof out.

And if I remember my AD&D correctly, this is some feat, as Rangers are rarely surprised...Peter Jackson's ranger not withstanding.

Ok, that is a legitimate argument, although you must admit there is a difference between disappearing from an open field and appearing at a rail. In one case it's just a step away from not being seen in the other many.

But yeah, the astonishment of those present does remind of the old man's disappearence, it does all in all point towards Saruman as the culprit that night.

But I still can't believe he would leave so quickly...:Merisu:

Maybe he would if he sensed another Power -- Gandalf -- in the area. I've always wondered why Saruman seemed completely unsurprised by Gandalf's presence on the steps of Orthanc after the battle. Did he have no news that Gandalf had died in Moria? Enquiring minds want to know... :)

Very much agreed. The probability of appearing at the rail, having been summoned and being expected, is very high...and yet the group I name (in the author's words) are astonished. How much more astonishing then for him to appear - then disappear -where he is not expected nor summoned?

Like you, I'm holding out for the DNA evidence.

I'm with you, though it does make the writing of the scene easier. ;)

And regarding the palantir allowing one to 'hologram' to another place...I just can't get the image out of my mind of Saruman being in the shower and Sauron popping into the bathroom. :D

Perhaps the old man was neither Gandalf or Saruman. Maybe, just maybe, it was C.S. Lewis poking around Middle-earth in search of good place names for his Narnia series.

But his role in Middle-Earth was embodied in Treebeard. ;)

Or perhaps for That Hideous Strength, since he more or less plagiarizes the term "Numinor."

For what it's worth, the quote I alluded to previously is:

Good allusion here. I think it does lend further credence to the idea that it was Saruman, although whether himself (I doubt it) or a phantom/vision is not 100% clear...

alatar, the detail I noticed in that quote is the cloak: Now that sounds more like a technicolour dream coat than a robe of white, which is what Gandalf had at this time. Granted, it is part of the ambivalence that surrounds the old man; however, Gandalf may have appeared to others cloaked in grey robes to hide the white, but I don't recall an instance of Gandalf the White appearing in a deceptive manner.

Again, we have no evidence that 'phantoms' and 'visions' are things that occur in Middle Earth. Though as explanations they may be possible, how much more probable that it simply was the old man himself, with his colour-changing cloak, and his ability to 'just appear' (and assuming then the opposite ability).

The harder issue to explain was his reason for leaving so rapidly, and my only hypothesis there is that he thought he had found himself within a bad joke, and so decided to get out as soon as possible.

"An Elf, a Ranger and a Dwarf are sitting in a forest..."

Gandalf noticed that Saruman's cloak was no longer white while in Orthanc (just prior to his imprisonment atop the tower); it was, rather, a dazzling array of all colors.

Precisely.

Another neat parallel in the story is that Saruman's robes actually eventually turn gray (muddy, bespattered, torn) after Gandalf's become white. Sort of mirroring one's ascension and one's decline in a literal/visual manner rather than merely figuratively.