As to why I said Amon Súl I have no idea, what I meant to say was on the banks of the great river, (where Boromir fell don't have my books with me I think it was the Anduin)

And the word trolls was interchangable with Orcs in the Silm for most part.

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

So has the list been narrowed down to four then?? Aragorn, Beren, Turin and Hurin? My top four would be in that order with Hurin 1st.

What?

Here we see both terms being used in the same place. Are they describing the same thing? I'd like to see where you got that idea.

Indeed, Hurin is probably the strongest. I know of no deeds by men that can match seventy trolls.

Perhaps Turin rivaled him, but never Aragorn/Beren, time for some research. It is hard to compare however.

Hmm interesting...I wasn't doing that from the Silmirallion, but from HOME 4 which doesn't state that it was Húrin striking down the guard of Gothmog, but only that he was striking down enemies. Now i see and it makes sense.

Turin. trolls are tough yeah, but the original most awesome dragon (save ancalagon)?

I don't think that Aragorn is the greatest men per se, but statements such as:

Make me pout. I think Aragorn's greatest struggle was against himself. I think it takes some &@!!$ to do what he did, at a time when there was virtually no hope. The rise of Aragorn was the start of a new age for Men, and frankly, I don't think ya should trivialize it.

As for Beren, did Tolkien himself not write that what he and his girlfriend did amounted to something like the greatest freakin' deed in history? Granted, he wasn't alone, but he definitely didn't just sit on the sidelines and cheer her on, did he? I am not so sure if that qualifies him for "greatest man" title either, but stop trivializing, boys!

Well, I'm sure he wasn't too ugly. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] What else does a girl need? I won't get into that.

My point is, if you're going to define "greatness" per se, you're going to get some different interpretations. If greatness is indeed staring down Morgoth, as our man Hurin did, fine. But not everyone is going to think that way.

And didn't Hurin commit suicide? What's so great and mighty and brave about that?

Basically, I think there is room for all sorts of interpretations of greatness. So let us not be hasty, or righteous, boys.

Turin didn't exactly give him a fair fight, no?

Anyway, I'd take my chances against the dragon if given the choice.

We aren't trivializing Aragorn's deeds, or anything else. How you refute that the men of earlier ages were greater, I don't know. How many heroes of men do we have in the Third Age, a period longer than the previous ages, in relation to those ages that had past? No one said Aragorn was a mama's boy or anything!

Everyone here has opinions, and the purpose of this thread is for each to give his(/her) opinion and explain how that opinion was formed.

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Lush you stole my remaining argument re: Beren = Tolkien.

I have another anyway: the Quenta Simarillion's central storyline is the fight to regain the Silmarils. Beren and Luthien accomplished 1/3 of that task. All the Noldor in hundreds of years of war didn't even get to see a Silmaril until the Valar intervened, except maybe Fingolfin.

After Beren regained the Silmaril from the Dwarves of Nogrod (Novgorod? ahh...reality intrudes, where are those pills [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]),Beren and Luthien were the only ones who managed possess a Silmaril in peace. And at the end of their lives they released their hold on the Simaril of their own accord, who else can say that?

I don't know what Luthien got out of the deal either, but the judgement of the greatest of the Children of Illuvatar has to weigh for something in Beren's favor.

The 70 for Hurin...was that trolls = 70 or orcs + trolls = 70? Still impressive either way.

Another idea....Luthien was the greatest of the Children. She became mortal. Wouldn't she then be the greatest woMan? I don't know that she counts for this. I've seen Elrond, Elros, and Tuor discounted for fuzzy lines between the races.

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

Amen!

Well, he had little choice about accepting what Morgoth showed him because he had no other point of reference for the events he viewed. Hurin maintained his resistance against Morgoth, which under the circumstances is all that can be expected.

We don't know that. Aragorn made the palantir show him what he wanted to see. I seriously doubt that Aragorn forced Sauron to view anything. What could Aragorn show Sauron that would intimidate or impress Sauron anyway?

I don't see how these instances really bear comparison. As Legolas cited in the quote, there is a vast difference between having a (brief) spiritual encounter and being in the immediate physical presence of the original incarnation of evil and being under its immediate curse for years and years.

You got it!

As Legolas pointed out earlier, Tolkien was a firm believer in the gradual diminishing of the power and splendor of the world. This was an integral part of the history of Middle earth. Even the Valar were affected by this inevitable trend. In view of this, any great hero from the First Age is greater than those of later ages by default.

Perhaps that gives Hurin another leg up. Those who were involved in the (greedy and unblessed) quest for the Silmarils seems to become besmirched in some way.

Hurin was captured because he was fighting out of duty to his lord. He was there because of his loyalty. He was resisting telling Morgoth the location of Gondolin. A matter that had nothing to do with the Silmarils. I think that because he was not trying to gain a Silmaril might actually be another point in his favor.

Yes, after a fashion. We'll qualify the question to say the greatest of those who were born human.

Anyway, I still don't believe that there is anything to compare with Hurin's accomplishment. Staring down the Original Evil and managing to hold out for a couple of decades is a feat without peer. (Even among Elves.)

It is true that few other humans had the opportunity to exercise their endurance in a mano y mano contest of wills against Morgoth, but we must go with what we have.

Hurin's the Man!

Still, if you measure greatness by "spiritual prowess," (which is valid in of itelf, but as for me, I choose kindess, which is sort of a narrower definition of spiritual prowess...But I won't get into that right now), then how does Hurin's suicide fit into all this?

I see your point here, and agree to the extent that it applies to those involved with Feanor and the Oath. Beren's quest had nothing to do with Feanor other than the jewels. Beren went after a Silmaril to give to Thingol in exchange for permission to marry Luthien. I see no besmirchment (is that a word? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) there.

If someone could weigh in on that 70 trolls, or 70 orcs + trolls I'd appreciate it. I do not want to reduce Hurin's stature (if that were even possible), but I lean toward the idea that not all 70 were trolls.

Hurin's actions contributed to the downfall of Gondolin. It says in the Sil. he did not trust Morgoth's release of him:

Hurin should have stayed away from Gondolin, knowing Morgoth had an ulterior motive for releasing him.

Beren did not pursue the Silmarils for their own sake. His intentions even in retaining it after the Battle of Sarn Asthad were noble. It was only Thingol who was ensnared by the Doom of Mandos in that context.

One can talk about how the Men of later Ages were less than heroes like Hurin, which would be generally true, and perhaps, in general once again, the the Men & Elves around Aragorn did not measure up to those of the Elder Days, but in many ways Aragorn dealt with challenges, moral, political, military, and personal that were not like Hurin's, who's life and choices were more simple, and who could certainly have discounted whatever Morgoth revealed to him as likely falsehood; he may have been wiser to have gone forth seeking the truth. Also, these issues relate to stature, and in may be assumed that despite the diminishment of other men Aragorn was equal to Elendil and others of the Second Age in terms of the purity of his lineage, except that he was no longer the equal in lifespan of the House of Elros among the Kings of Numenor. In any case, I would submit that Elendil and others of the early Dunedain could be every bit the equal of their forefathers.

Finally, Aragorn showed Sauron Anduril and presented him with his on vulnerability. Even though Morgoth was far greater than Sauron, Hurin never put fear in Morgoth.

We can't say for certain that every time Húrin 'slew' he was slaying a troll, however we may take his battlecry ('Day shall come again!') as a reference to the troll's notorious intolerance for sunlight, and a prayer for dawn. In any case, he withered the troll-guard of Gothmog, who was also present but evidently unable to take Húrin by himself.

Strictly speaking we don't know that Hurin committed suicide. It's presented as a rumor. The rumor is sparked because we don't know what happened to him.

I think that if the request besmirched Thingol, it probably tainted Beren too.

Probably. However, by that logic Beren contributed to the fall of Doriath by bringing in the Silmaril which ultimately caused the downfall. All Hurin did was show Morgoth the very general location of Gondolin.

As stated above, I'm not sure that's true. He was pursuing them to gain something for himself. However, he was not ensnared by the Doom of Mandos since that was for the Elves.

Aye, indeed. And anyone in their right mind, if presented with a choice in the matter, would choose Aragorn's challenges over Hurin's.

I don't think that you are giving Morgoth the credit that he deserves. In the Third Age nothing was more dangerous than being brought alive before Sauron (something that Aragorn did not experience). How much more so for his master in the First. The terrifying presence of Morgoth was the worst experience that one could experience in the world. Hurin experienced it. Hurin endured.

You'll likely be arguing with the Sub-creator if you do so, but feel free.

So wouldn't that make perfect sense. Smaller, weaker spirit afraid that a loose enemy leader may disrupt his war plans compared to Original Evil toying with helpless prisoner who can't do a thing unless allowed. I don’t think the two situations are comparable.

i think turin was the greatest. yeah, sure, Hurin defied Morgoth for, say, a few hours, when Morgoth bound him to that chair. how could Hurin have known he was dooming his line? how could he expect anything less then Death for defieying Morgoth to his face? after Morgoh bound him to the chair, he was powerless even to defie Morgoth. Morgoth overcame his spirit, even if through a spell.

-Lenwa Fea

Hurin's experience with Morgoth was more than a 'few hours.'

More than 200,000 hours, really.

So everyone here has argued about Aragorn, Bereb, Húrin, and Túrin. But what about the others? Aldarion, for example. So alright, he wasn't exactly "great," but he wasn't a complete waste of time. And how about... Arathorn, Aragorn's father? I don't know too much about him, but he has come across as the kind of guy that anyone would feel safe around.

Also, someone touched lightly on Luthien's choice to become mortal which could nominate her for greatest woman (which would fall in here, I believe since I get the impression you are including the whole race of Men in this discussion). But what about Haleth? She was not a chicken. Maybe she is not the greatest of the race of Men, but she deserves a place among them for the courage she showed.

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: Cúdae ]

More than 200,000 hours, really.

i understand he was with morgoth for 28 years, but as I said, morgoth origanally didn't curse Hurin's line until he defied him. Nor did the Enemy tell him he wouldn't be able to move or die for 28 years.

but on reflection i realize that Morgoth was cruel and cunning. Hurin would have realized this, i think.

o well, have to run to class.

I don’t think it was the request that besmirched Thingol. He named the Silmaril as his price for Luthien with the thought that the quest was impossible.

I think the fate of Doriath was sealed after Beren actually returned with the Silmaril.

Beren’s motovation had nothing to do with possessing a Silmaril. I think that is why he did not fall under the doom of Mandos, not because he wasn’t an elf.

I can't believe people are actually arguing that Beren was the greatest Man. He was a pansy. The task of retrieving a silmaril was every bit as impossible for Beren as Thingol believed. Still, blinded by his love (which I am not minimizing), Beren agreed to do it. Fortunately, Lúthien was willing to bail him out when he got in too deep. Had Húrin the same secret weapon that Beren did, he could have retrieved a silmaril just as easily.

Believe it or not, some people have a different opinion. The quest for the Silmaril was not the only evidence put forward for Beren. I'd hardly say he was a pansy.

Sure, Hurin was the bomb: he chopped trolls like a mad man, he spit in Morgoth's eye, he sat chained in a chair for 28 years, he was the greatest mortal warrior ever. In the end Morgoth still got what he wanted from Hurin. And he died in despair, possibly by suicide. As long as you are tossing "ifs" out there...if Beren had sat in Hurin's chair he would have defied Morgoth for twice as long. When Morgoth unchained him Beren would have said "Put the football game on and bring me a beer."

Hurin was captured in a failed battle of the long failed war in which the Noldor never even got close enough to see the jewels they were fighting for. Beren and one elf maiden accomplished what the Hurin and the Noldor were trying to do when Hurin was captured.

Obviously no one is saying Hurin was a wimp. In all reality, I waver some. Defying Morgoth to his face is arguably the single bravest act in the whole Silmarillion.

This is just a quick note because I must be brief.

Beren was in a state of despair after the death of Finrod when he was a prisoner of Sauron. He hadn't even been tortured yet! Bother the fact of being in Morgoth's presence.

Indeed! Performed by the Greatest Man that ever lived!

You think Hurin wasn't in despair when facing Morgoth? In those instances they both despaired and resisted.

Keneldil the Polka-dot made some good points about Beren, and also Tolkien compared himself to Beren ( on his grave stone as we all know ). But Hurin gets my vote also. His deeds are just to great to overlook.

its gotta be ar-pharazon to date he's the only man 2 stand up nd say im not gona take the curse of men liein down! + he scared the crap out ov sauron he gets my vote any way

Duuude, whatever. This is fiction, right? Tolkien, the writer of said fiction, implied that Hurin committed suicide, but left the readers hanging, to preserve the authentic "feel" of the re-telling of a myth. At the same time, we can sense that Hurin's anger and despair got the best of him in the end, and considering that his kids had done themselves in...Basically, I think Hurin was very cool, but I think Morgoth got what he wanted from him in the end, and I just somehow don't feel that Tolkien wanted us to believe that Hurin was the greatest. I rather felt sorry for Hurin by the time his tale was done, trolls or no trolls.

"His dark tresses, drenched and tangled,
that fell o'er his face he flung backward,
in the eye he looked of the evil Lord --
since that day of dread to dare his glance
has no mortal Man had might of soul.
There the mind of Húrin in a mist of dark
neath gaze unfathomed groped and foundered,
yet his heart yielded not nor his haughty pride." (HoME III, 1.2.I; stresse mine)

Maybe outdated and rebuked (unlikely); maybe just a poetic hyperbole; maybe the differentiation 'since that day' explicitly and intentionally excludes Beren. Whatever, it clearly shows the greatness of spirit of Húrin, undoubtedly the most important factor when it comes to overall greatness in Tolkien's Legendarium.

Oh, Sharkey, how deft of you to sneak up with a HoMe quotation, when you know that kids like myself are all too busy wigging out over term-papers to rummage through the more obscure stuff. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Definitely, if you divorce that particular image of Hurin from what supposedly happened to him later, his greatness is kinda hard to deny.
Perhaps, what Tolkien meant was that as Hurin faced Morgoth, his soul reached the highest level of might known to man. What happened afterwards could very well be of no consequence. If that's enough to call him the greatest, and it very well could be, then I don't think I could argue with that.

Yeah, but it takes guts to defy morgoth. Hurin could look him in they eye and not be afraid, something that Manwe could barely do. And remember the slaying of SEVENTY Trolls, some of them might have even been maiar, since some maiar shifted into Troll and Orc chieftans and I bet that Gothmog had the greatest trolls too. He also slew hundreds of Orcs. Battle-wise, the only people that could take Hurin would probably be Fingolfin and Feanor, and maybe Maedhros, and the only men that could take on Hurin would be Turin, Beren, Tuor and Huor whilst in terms of valour he is the greatest man by far.

Hee hee, good point but in my opinion it doesn't make him 'great' or the 'greatest'. In my opinion it simply has to be Hurin. I have read arguments for Aragorn on this thread and thats just got to be bullplop. Who would you have rather had in either of the situations they both faced. Would Aragorn have stood up to Morgoth for 28 years? Would Hurin have sneaked around the land of the north most of his life even though he was the rightful King? Of course not, years before he would have reclaimed his Kingship and built up an army strong enough to stop Sauron getting anywhere near as strong as he did. And Beren? Hmm, difficult, he certainly didn't have as much physical prowess as Hurin but he did steal the Silmaril but, in my mind, that was mostly the work of his 'ladyfriend' (she proabaly bragged about it for ages afterwards and never let it drop).

So there you go Hurin is the best nah nah, nah nah nah!

Ar Pharazon? What? He wasn’t the first man to stand up against the mutuality of men, many men had done it before him. And what the is the ‘curse’ of men? Do you mean the ‘fate’, ‘gift’ or ‘doom’ of men that they will one day die? This is not a curse. In the end, even the Elves and the Valar would envy the doom of men and freedom toe escape the world, and it is only the insolence of the first generation men, who worshiped Melkor that it is referred to in a negative manner. never remember reading a post on Ar-Pharazon ‘scaring’ Sauron, it was really Sauron being clever and manipulative. He knew his armies would get a *** -kicking form the Numenoreans, and he knew that the only way in which he could destroy Numenor was to ‘destroy’ it from the inside, which he did.

Thats right hi was 'scared' to face the numenorians in a pitched battle i was talking about the fate of men as a curse just as ar-pharazon did! realy well please tell me who stood up against this curse like ar-pharazon? he whent to take the valar on for gods sake! thats gutsy man

Gutsy yes, but I don't think he could have done what Hurin, Turin, Beren or Aragorn did. He was weak, thats why Sauron defeated him.

weak? he was the the greatist king of numenor!

I'm a litle torn on this one....

At first I thought Hurin. Yeh! He defied Morgoth for 28 years, that takes guts! But....if you think about it...he didn't really have much choice.

He defied Morgoth properly at the beginning. But after that he had no choice but to live on, anyone else in his position would have been the same. And if, as Lush says, he did commit suicide, my vote for him kind of drops.

I wouldn't say Beren, because Luthien just did too much of the work for him.

Aragorn....he was great, but just didn't quite compare to his ancestors. It took courage to look into the Palantir, walk the Paths of the Dead etc. but it's nothing the people before him wouldn't have done.

Turin....possibly. He did manage to do some great things in his life, despite not having the best of circumstances.

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Tolkien had to make this difficult didn't he? No definite quote like there is for the Eldar!

Yeh Turin was great for putting up with so much crap in his life but the whole episode with his sister makes me shiver so he loses my vote. I pulled a picture of Hurin off the net, there is a better one of his sitting in front of Morgoth by Ted Nasmith but this one is good too and shows how brave he is. Observe!

http://digilander.libero.it/mgmfaenz...andi/hurin.jpg

I've also heard other people say that Turin lost points because of the incident with his sister, but I really don't think that's valid.

What does it have to do with anything?

He didn't know it was her, she didn't know it was him, they got along well and clicked, and then they got married. Okay, so where was the mistake or shortcoming here?

If you had a long lost sibling that you didn't know about, and then found out your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband was that sibling, would that make you any less of a person, or discount your accomplishments? Of course not, it wouldn't have anything to do with that stuff.

So please, don't discount Turin for "Greatest Man" because of that.

Its still freaky and his father was still better.