Does the Mouth of Sauron have actual powers though? IIRC he is a black Numenorean, and as such would not have the innate power that Sauron had. Also, I would assume from this his power is tied to Sauron, so he would not be able to "lie low" like Sauron did. My personal thought is that after Sauron was overthrown, the "greater evils" i.e. sauron melkor came to an end, and the despotism and innate evilness of people came to the fore.

The Mouth of Sauron entered into the service of the Dark Tower when it first arose again, I have always taken this to be possibly TA 2951, from this moment he grew in favour and learned great sorcery. Now if this is true, and we set his age at 20, then he would only be about the same age as Aragorn, not that old for someone of Numenorean descent. If we look at another scenario, one that places MoS at the earlier time of Saurons return from Numenor, then that makes him far older. In The Silmarillion we are told of Saurons return to Barad-dur thus:

And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Numenor.

It is possible that MoS was one of these.


If he had managed to somehow hold back his death, I think Sauron must have had something to do with it, for none can withold the gift of Iluvatar. The Numenoreans under their last Kings and at the height of their powers could not do this, if MoS had been lent power by Sauron, then at his downfall I think he would also fall. If he had somehow survived the fall of his master, I think this powerful sorcerer would/could have found some new power base. After the fall of Sauron, the Black Numenoreans merged with the Men of Middle-earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor, seems like an ideal location for a New Shadow to arise. The mouth of Sauron would be a powerful character in The Fourth Age, the Istari have gone, and the other powers are enamoured of their environment.

Back to the original question....

Where do hobbits really come from?

The Shire mostly, but there are some in Bree..... :p

Naughty Davem....

Now tell me where they were in the Second Age!

Hiding from lascivious Numenoreans.

Smoking halfling weed at the equivalent of Woodstock.

Where were the Hobbits in the Second Age? Breeding with Entwives lol!! :p

I always thought that if Saruman was given the proper time and resources he could become a third Dark Lord, perhaps an even greater one than Sauron. Let's see how they are related:

1. They are both Maiar of Aule.
2. They could successfully breed Orcs, Saruman could effectively breed even BIGGER ones!
3. They love going among Men and bewitching them.
4. They both had a Pilantir.
5. They liked making Rings.
6. I have forgotten the other comparisons I have made.

So, if Saruman hadn't made his abode right inbetween the horses of Rohan and the Entwife-spawn hobbits of Eriador ;) , maybe stuck himself somewhere near Mirkwood, could he have become yet another Dark Lord in the Fourth Age?

BTW, can anyone else think of more comparisons/differences between Sauron and Saruman?

I have always had an impression that Sauron was innately more powerful than Saruman hence his rise to prominence. It is thus in my opinion also that Saruman would never be as powerful as Sauron no matter the time nor the resources.

Not necessarily, I think. Remember, Sauron was Morgoth's lackey/
lieutenant/whatever, while Saruman was in Aman as, presumably,
a significant maia- since he seems to have been considered the
head of the istari (granted, mostly a ceremonial title). And once he
decided to go agaionst the prohibition put on the istari of
imposing their will on others he may well have been Sauron's equal
or superior (especially a Sauron without the Ring).

As for a Middle-earth mystery---what was the nature of the
"magic" the woodelves used on the dwarves in The Hobbit
that seems to have paralyzed them and made them unconscious
(at least Thorin).

Hello Tour In Gondolin, nice to meet you again.

As I have stated, it is only my opinion that Sauron is mightier than Saruman and this is one passage from which that opinion was formed:

The dark spirit in question may refer literally to Sauron himself or perhaps figuratively the darkness that took hold of Saruman's heart. I chose to interprete it literally here.

It is true that Sauron was orignally a mäiar of Aulë who turned lieutenant of Morgoth. But Morgoth was very great in his powers and so I think that being Morgoth's direct subordinate was not proof of the lack of power but rather a statement of the disparity of power between the lord and vassal. And Sauron as we have read was very powerful himself.

Saruman was likewise a servant of higher powers. He was only considered the greatest of the five Mäiars that became the Istari, but that does not translate into comparison of his innard powers to the other supernatural beings such as Sauron, Melian or Arien.

I agree with Saurreg. Saruman is one of the Maiar which is (as far as I know) not as powerful as the Valar, which is what Sauron was.

Sorry, but Sauron was not one of the Valar, he was a Maia, or are you saying that Sauron was as powerful as a Vala, in which case I think you are also wrong.

Who is it that declares Saruman greatest of the Five Istari? Gandalf? By what measure does he know this? Was he, in this one case, being humble? Regardless, Gandalf the White states, I think, that he is about the most dangerous being in Middle Earth except if one were brought before the Nine-fingered one. If Gandalf says that he is less that Sauron, and as the White is greater than Saruman, then Saruman is lesser than Sauron.

Not that Saruman lacked spunk ;).

Sorry that this doesn't have relevance to the discussion, but does anybody else find the idea of The Blue Wizards starting magic cults cool? :)

I read somewhere since then that Morgoth devoted some of his power to Sauron, giving Sauron a fair share of Iluvatar's gifts, and Saruman never had this, so my opinion has changed on this topic I'm afraid...