Well, Bethberry, only those with a degree in Tolkienology can reply, so... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Just kidding, dear! I always appreciate a good post from you. Especially a funny one.


In regards to Birdie's reply that the fall of Gondolin can be traced all the way to the beginning of time, this is, of course, true. I was looking for more of ya'll's (yes, I've lived in the South for 7 years, and it's starting to show) personal feelings toward her, and whether the fact that she is a female affects you in any way.

That's what I thought. Take note, everyone: that's why Turgon's decision to hide in Gondolin is irrelevant. If Aredhel had argued with him over the wisdom of that decision and begun an evacuation based on her opinion, she would have been bravely defying authority and convention to defend the interests of everyone, which is the duty of someone in her position. I can't see any evidence in the text that this was her reason. She wanted something for herself, and she was determined to have it, my point being that as far as she knew she might bring disaster to everyone by swanning off all over creation. Someone with a social conscience might have thought twice rather than just blindly insisting on their prerogative.

As for returning: nobody can really blame someone from fleeing the sort of marriage that Aredhel had with Eöl, or for running to the only safe place that they know. However, one might suggest that it's also necessarily a completely egocentric decision: I see no evidence in the story of Aredhel that at any stage she ever sat down and thought: "If I do that, how will it affect other people?"

The only reason that I'm still belabouring this point is because it seems to me that it's being taken as a justification of Turgon, whereas it's just an explanation of how I see Aredhel's personal motivation, and why I don't like it. My opinion has nothing to do with her being a woman, the fall of Gondolin or her disobedience, but came about from my feeling that she only ever seems to think about what she wants, never about anyone else. This, for the sake of comparison, is the most notable feature of Morgoth's personality.

Comparing Morgoth and an elf? Well that seems a bit of a stretch to me. But only Morgoth? everyone thinks about what they want,and we usually consider the effect of our actions on others second. but most of us are gifted with a little more foresight than Aredhel. The reason why it is inexcusable for her to act human, is because she's an elf, and is supposed to be wise.

I'm not saying that they're the same in all respects, just that they share a character trait: that of never compromising their desires for the common good.
I've noticed that when someone plays into Morgoth's hands in the Silmarillion it usually happens due to some emotion or form of behaviour that is detectable in the Dark Lord himself: with Feanor it's a combination of his jealousy of the Silmarils and his desire for revenge; with Maeglin it's brooding resentment; with Turin and many others it's pride and anger. Whenever he's thwarted, though, the action is usually one of self-sacrifice, altruism, wisdom or courage, particularly when unlooked-for. This, to my mind, is the influence of his discordant themes in the Music.

Quite. It just goes to show that neither age nor education can confer wisdom. Having said that, if all Elves were wise, there would have been no Noldor in Middle-earth in the first place: they'd have been loafing about in Valinor like anyone with any sense.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

Just to give you guys a little more to talk about (because I dont see any mention of it).
Those that speculat that JRRT is trying to tell us how wonem should or should not act, and that Aredhel was a 'bad girl' then you might want to remember that it was pretty much the same caracteristics that are applied to Galagriel and her reasons for leaving Valinor: Feeling closed in, thought that she had learned/gained what she could from the Valar - wanted to find new lands, govern other people - and so on.
Just when you read about Galadriel you get a quite positive feeling about the whole deal, because it pretty much went good. But when Aredhel is some way (very indirectly imo) leads to the Fall of Gondolin - well then people speculate...

well, just thoughts...
Cheers Telchar [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

thats because Galadriel didnt bring an entire city crashing around the inhabitants' ears. There is little difference in the attidutes of these two characters, but their fates are quite different. When Galadriel dashed off to M.E. there was little or no thought involved, she just went because she felt like it, not giving much thought to the consequences of her actions. Even so, she gets a happy ending, which undermines what JRRT was trying to get at (i think) with Aredhel.

I don't think so. Their attitudes are the same, but their surrounding circumstances aren't. Galadriel wasn't leaving a hidden city that the Dark Lord was known to be searching for. This puts a greater burden of responsibility on the case of Aredhel, which strengthens the idea that she should have shown better judgement. Whether or not this was the author's point, I cannot say, but I don't think Galadriel's story would undermine the moral of Aredhel's tale in this regard.

I think that the main difference between Galadriel and Aredhel is that the former's strong will is coupled with a sense of logic and wisdom. Aredhel is mostly just stubborn.
I think when she was younger, Galadriel was capable of Aredhel's actions, i.e., I can't see her sitting in one closed-off place (i.e. Gondolin) forever, while not simultaneously being the leader. I don't, however, think that Galadriel would have entered Eol's house without putting up a helluva fight. She could see into people, remember? I think that Aredhel lacked a certain sensitivity, and that this lack ultimately played a big part in her doom. Frankly, I don't think the girl could see farther than her own nose. Then again, you could easily say the same for Turgon. Guess it must run in the family.

Having now read that part of the Sil, this is my opinion.

I don't feel Aredhel can really be blamed for the fall of Gondolin. Sure, she was restless and left, and without that it probably wouldn't have fallen, but that's just another part of the chain. To me, the real person behind Gondolin falling was Maeglin. And you can't blame Aredhel for her son falling in love with his cousin, wanting power...etc.

I see no reason why a woman shouldn't be allowed to feel restless and wander just as much as men. In the case of Aredhel, however, she should probably have been more careful, knowing that there was always a chance that she could reveal the location of Gondolin, even if by accident. As she did, since Eol followed her. So, while the actual restless emotions she was feeling aren't actually wrong, if you consider her situation and status, she should have put them to the back of her mind and not acted upon them.

I think she was just a free spirit. It wasnt her fault that her son turned out like his father( and i could come up with a long list of adjectives here but i wont) and went and betrayed Gondolin. True,she did make a bad choice of a husband, but that cand and does happen with a guy who is charming at the outset. If Maeglin had been more like her, Gondolin would have sstayed the way it was

I think that Aredhel was just a free spirit like her cousin Galadriel. The only difference was, that Galadriel knew when she could leave, and when it was just stupid to leave. I don't think Aredhel realized that. Of course, she was a silly bint at times, but I don't really blame her. I would have tried to claw my way out of that city if I had to.

The one thing that makes me want to slap that silly bint though is when she rode to Gondolin with Maeglin, why the hell did she wear white?!?!?!?! I mean, Eol could see her from far away wearing that, which gave them both away! I don't think it was her free spirit that resulted in all the above-mentioned events, it was her vanity! She loved being the White Lady of the Noldor, and apparently, forgot that her husband would follow them as soon as he got back!

Ok, so my reply might be *subjective*, hence my name [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img], but I'll try to argue my case effectively. *Takes a deep breath*

A lot of the people that have replied to this thread seem to think that Aredhel was a selfish spoiled immature little brat with no sense of responsibility. From one point of view, she is. Especially when most here blame her for the fall of Gondolin. That's not true. Gondolin was doomed from the beginning.

Aredhel is my favorite character in Sil, maybe just because she was more *human* than the rest of the perfect goody two-shoes Elf ladies. Sure, leaving a city Morgoth was looking for was foolish, but she never betrayed it. And she was most certainly NOT an idiot. There are no idiots in Tolkien's Books.

Let's look at this from the scolary point of view: A person that has been cooped up in one place for a loooong time NEEDS to get out. It's simple. Aredhel was known as a hunter and a generally *free* spirit in Valinor as well.

Anyway, the woods of Nan Emloth (sp?) offered her more freedom than the walls of Gondolin. She might have stayed her, and had a *comparatively* happy life much longer if not for that twisted orc of a son she had. He was the one who made her leave, he was the one who betrayed Gondolin because he couldn't have his COUSIN.

Sure, that can be blamed on the less-than-pleasant relationship between his parents (something very similar in Feanor's case, don't you think? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). Maybe Tolkien was trying to say something there...

Anyway, to sum it all up, I say Aredhel was much more interesting to read about than, say, Galadriel or Luthien.

By the way, who can really blame her? Her whole family was like that. It's simply... Noldor... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Gríma Wormtongue.

He was corrupted. And as close to an idiot as you get.

I don't think Grima Wormtongue is an idiot, he's just a severely misunderstood person. I think that is what led to his eventual corruption by Saruman. No one liked him at all.

Aredhel as self-seeker
 

Greetings All...
I know this is an old toppic and another Aredhel in the forrest, but I feel I could write few lines about it :) She became my the most favourite character long time ago, I study her a lot because I am interrested in mytology globally. I made my account for this so it is my first review and I am not native english speaker, so, pleas, exuse mistakes. It was also hard for me to read all the text here but I think I have main lines... You described many ideas I have about it. Lush, thank you, you protected the fortress very well in 2002 ;o) Maybe it is understanding between all white ladies ;)

For me she was the self-seeker. She didn't want the power (she was highking's sister and very noble but she preffered wandering), was extravagant (wears only white and silver) and not afraid of impediments in her way to herselve (Helcaraxe, leaving of Gondolin, Ereth Gorgoroth, leaving Elmoth ;o) ).
She didn't want happines forever but true relationship, even complicated, with those she loved. So she still saw Feanorians through they were cursed.
Oh yes and I believe they were in love with Eöl. Elves could leave their bodie very easily if they realy didn't like things which happend to it :D (fea and hroa conception, somewhere in earlier texts, not sure where). Eol had temper very similar to Feanorians, actually. He could be very exotic for her. He was Black, she was White. He was Moredhel she was Aredhel. Eöl's strange courting could overdone her cold and distance (she was very tired when she came to his house) and hesistancy. One of his characteristics was "huggermugger" - I see him almoust like "bowler" shy about his feelings, aim in action instead of words ;o) Their love may be strange, complicated, hidden in tweilight. Kind of forbidden relationship which may grew when two are alone but died in confrontation with reality. Well, there could be something unhealthy about it. That is why I meet gothic, vampire Aredhels usually ;o)

She was not perfect. And that is the most interresting about her. I agree her proclamations to Turgon about escape and her escape from Elmoth were temerite, almoust like adolescent behaviour. Aredhel was lady full of contrast - she was restless and not sure what she wants, but when she found it she gave all into it. She wanted to be free and to be herselve. She was noble, pride a little bit, from her soul... Flaming soul close to Feanor's kind. Trying hard to describe herselve. Pride is not so unusual in elven kind and very typical for Noldor ;o)But temper and flame was inborn, so from Eru Iluvatar and so it had it's place in music of Arda ;o)

Who betrayted Gondolin?
 

I recogniced I wrote nothing about Fall of Gondolin :rolleyes:

Well then...
- It was said Gondolin will fail even before it was build
- Tuor came to Gondolin as Ulmo's messenger, saying "Hey, guys, the time came, we have to leave the city" ;o) But Turgon temporized.
- Fate reason of Gondolin was keep a safe place where "Hope" may be born (Earendil). Even Maeglin believed in it (well... he believed that HE is the hope ;o) ). No Fall of Gondolin -> No escape of Idril, Tuor and Earendil -> No Vingilótë -> No sail to Valinor -> No final destruction of Morgoth :D

- Aredhel was quite guarded in her speech about Gondolin for a long time (and even her son with special mind-reading skill didn't elicite a lot ;o) )
- Relationship between Maeglin and Eöl may be much worse than between Eöl and Aredhel. I see some Freudian topic here ;--) She was allowed to stay in Gondolin but he was not (in Eöl's eyes). She was free in her travels, except visit her cousins, even she could leave Elmoth, if under moon. If the son only figured out he want visit the Noldor, Eöl was angry and very cruel to him. Eöl was not a good father and if Maeglin was ever trapped, then between his two parents.
- Aredhel planted the seed of desire. She created secret fairytale for his son, something that musn't be said, something hidden, something to feel guilty for. Strories about forbidden lands.
- Eöl was jealous and pride in Gondolin. He was enchanted by beauty of the land as well, but it made things even worse. And he tryed to kill his own son.
- Aredhel was trying save the situation when Eöl came to Gondolin. Her son and then her husband.
- Maeglin had problem of Orestes. His father killed his mother and when trying to kill HIM. He was still quite young, maybe adolescent, who hate his father anyway... so he said nothing against. So he lost both his parents in the same day...
- Eöl cursed his son. This is not good. Fate proclamations have BIG power in Arda...
- Idril estranged absolutelly and it made it worse. She saw Maeglin was visiting border as well because she knew him the best, but she made only a tunel, she didn't try keep him in the city.
- But it was decision of Maeglin betray the Gondolin. Aredhel never wanted it. If she alive she would do everything against. And Eöl wanted only go back to his small forrest (and destroy Noldor eventually ;o) but not today) .

The special question are Eöl's weapons. In early work there is passage Eöl may be ensnared by Morgoth. Trapped for a while. Then it is said he was Dark elf (Moredhel) and he made two strange swords ;o) Those swords were affected by his mentality, almoust cursed. One of them became to Turin - the one he killed Beleg with, then Glaurung and then himselve. The second was stolen by Maeglin and perhaps became to scene where he was trying to kill Tuor.
Eöl worn poisoned javelin also. He killed Aredhel with it. This is unusual - only cause with poisoned weapon in demesne of elf i know.
If he was trapped by Morgoth (maybe he didn't remember), is it possible to behave betrayter of Goldolin even earlier he is born and via two swords from unknown material (who knows where the meteorit came from, hmmm?) keep two the biggest victories of Enemy in Firts age? (Fall of Gondolin, Children of Hurin)

In early work Meglin with Eöl and Aredhel with Idril are often only one figure. This is also very interresting. It connected it with Eowyn and Gríma Wormtongue and Witchking.

Poisoned, cursed moments near him. Unnatural relationships near Aredhel.

Hi Aredhel, and welcome to the Downs! I'm not a native English speaker either, but I think I understood most of what you were saying. Nice analysis of the Aredhel-Eöl-Maeglin triangle, and some psychologic insights concerning your namesake that are worth thinking about.
And if you're going to post here more often, you'll find the practice will do marvels for your English!:)

Thank you, Pitchwife, for your very kind welcoming words :) I am sure this forum will be marvelous for my English as same as for my Tolkienistic soul! :O)

Welcome!
 

Dear Aredhel, welcome to the Downs!:) I was very interested in your analysis of your elvish namesake; and my contribution to this debate is that no, I think Aredhel was 'unwise' rather than 'bad'. Her behaviour, both in terms of wanting to go where she wanted and marrying Eöl, was certainly unwise;:( but that lack of wisdom ran in the family, in particular in her Uncle Fëanor, who directly caused the deaths of so many fellow Elves. :mad:

One of the few Elves of that generation who seemed to gain wisdom over the years was Aredhel's cousin Galadriel, who renounced her chance of taking the One Ring, and who was accepted back into Valinor as a result.

Lindolirian, I don't think Wormtongue was an idiot. Saruman would not have chosen such a person to carry out his delicate plans to undermine Rohan. His plan was to undermine the kingdom by undermining Theoden, but to do so in a delicate manner. The way to do this, both by words and by mild poisons, was to ensure that Theoden would give orders that reduced Rohan's ability to defend itself; but he would not give orders that were either mad, or illegal or unconstitutional; so there would be no case to either set up a regency or dethrone him.

For me, Aredhel's mistake with respect to Gondolin begins with her decision to go with her brother when he reveals to her that he has plans to build a secret kingdom in a hidden valley and never intends to leave. Given that wandering far and wide is something that she loved since Valinor, it didn't require elven foresight to see that a cloistered existence was not the best thing for her.
I think that her decision, well demand really, to leave is undeniably selfish (she is putting her needs above the safety and security of an entire kingdom). But I do sympathise with her a bit at this point. The need to wander is a longstanding trait for her. It is not something that suddenly manifests itself as a result of being in Gondolin.Having made what is for her a bad decision, she is stuck with either living it (which given elven lifespans would be a daunting prospect) or selfishly demanding an out.
Having opted to leave Gondolin I do think that she ought to have stayed gone. I've a hard time sympathising with her here. She perhaps (mistakenly) thought that she could be happy in Gondolin the first time. Did she think the second time round would be the charm? Even if Eol had not followed her to Gondolin, would she have been happy there indefinitely (or at least until her evil seed child betrayed the kingdom)?
Ultimately I don't think she is to blame for the fall of Gondolin. I think more direct blame can be laid at the feet of Maeglin for his actions and also Turgon for his inaction. I do agree though that Aredhel is an interesting character.

Hot headed Noldor
 

reply to Faramir:
Must agree most of Exilians were unwise. Probably all the wise stayed in Aman ;O)

Mention that was their fate since they let Valinor.
As Faramir said, by Feanaro acts and decisions. The had a chance to change their fate until Herold said to him what happend to those who will go. War, death and no mention the beauty and good thing they will do, they will turn into shadows and big saddness will find their kind...
Ofcourse for example Fingolfin feeled he had to go, because he unfortunatelly swear his loyalty to Feanor not a long time before.
Nods, Galadriel was very wise. It is said that 'cause she had a blood of all three kinds of Eldar (Vanya by her grandmother Indis, Teleri by her mother Eärwen, rest Noldor) she was especially noble and royal. Also, she was able to enter Doriath and teached by Maia Melian a lot (with touch of guiltines because of Killing in Alqualonde). Compaired to, Ared spended most or her time with selfis flaming Feanorians she had similar temper to ;) I think, yes, she was selfish and unwise, dont think she was bad or immoral.

Thing of Beauty ;)
 

The trouble I think is that Gondolin was a mirror of Tirion upon Tuna. Elven city where Noldor used to live before left and many of them were realy loving it and composing songs about it beeing in ME (Like in the Galadriel song). So, mirroring Tirion by their the best, Gondolin was also the most beautiful city in whole Middle Earth. A place to use all the crafts and skills of Noldor. Going to and build Tirion again as secret project could be very interesting for her, or she feeled she dont want to leave Turgon maybe (how old was Idril in that days? Crossing Helcaraxe she was a child, her mother died and so Aredhel, as Turgons sister could also take a part of her nurture).
Yes, maybe more foreseeing Eldar than her should care and tell her better to stay on "open air" since she would be unhappy. Other task is, if stubbornly Ared would listen to them ;)

Maeglin wanted to see treausures of Noldor, and she wanted to show him that small rest of Noldor nobility beauties she could. Fate of Noldor, said by Herold of Valar was that Valar will not let them come back and they will have to stay in ME till die... so no chance take Maeglin into Valinor with her. Also I think, she could decide that Gondolin is only place where they could be safe when Eöl finds out they left him. She knew the way bact to Goldolin and to the cousins kingdome not far from Elmoth. Maybe she did not know how to travel to ... for example ... Fingons or Maedhros mannor and while on escape, she needed to move quickly.
Also, secret of Gondolin is the most safe in Gondolin itselve. And Gondolin was temporary project, so few more hundered years, maybe she thought, could survive ;)

This is not an exuse, just could be some of her reasons ;)

Taur na Fuin
 

BTW.
I realy thing one of ideas hidden in the story, maybe not so clear dercribed in Silmarillion but a little cleaner in other sources (remember something in The Lays of Beleriand and The Book of Lost Tales no.2 ... maybe elsewhere too, It is a long while since I saw that books) is that...
Morgoth may posibly and somehow "use" Eöl and Aredhel to give a birth to Maeglin or maybe to create that two cursed swords.
Eöl, trapped in distant past in young days of Eldar by Morgoth ... than somehow set free... apears in Doriath... from nowhere... and is found as old and distant relation with Elu Thingol.
Finds higly strange "stone" ... meterorit... fallen... from unknown material. There is not said it is Varda's fallen star, so it could be Morgoth's trap as well.
Makes two swords and both of them has dirty fate. Especially Anglachel, sword given to Thingol as tier, than given to Turin Turambar. It may be partly a guild of sword, that Turambar's fate is so sad.

Aredhel... is lost in Ered Gorgorth. Earlier this place was the same as place where Eol was living in (Taur na Fuin). It is very dangerous land, full of Servants of Enemy.
Her companions has severe problems, lost her, must fight for their lives and must go back. She... safely pass Ered Gorgoroth (twice ... on the way back with her son too).
So she ~could~ (only a hypothesis ;o) ) be enchantered by evil powers to fell in love (or sort of fallen relationship ;o) ) with Eol, or the powers there could find she is ideal candidate for it anyway...

What do you think about this my theory?