Wow. I should visit my own threads more often. :smokin: (smiley use excuse)

Kransha and Finwe-

Can we revisit the Faramir/Boromir/Imrahil thing? I am still way confused on thier relationship.

Imrahil's sister Finduilas is the mother of Faramir and Boromir- thus Imrahil is their uncle. He is also Eowyn's uncle-in-law (as she married Faramir).

Imrahil's daughter Lothiriel married Eomer, making Imrahil Eomer's father-in-law. Faramir is Eomer's brother-in-law, since he married his sister, Eowyn.

Here's a rough family tree below, including only Denethor, Faramir, Boromir, Imrahil, Lothiriel, Finduilas, Eomer and Eowyn. Oh, and it also contains Imrahil's father, Adrahil ;). Don't mind the dots- they're just there to space it out properly.

............................................Adrahil
......................................._____|_____ _
......................................|........... .......|
..............................Imrahil.............Finduilas = Denethor
..................................|............... ............____|____
..................................|............... ...........|.............|
...........................Lothiriel = Eomer*..Boromir....Faramir = Eowyn*


*Denotes that Eomer and Eowyn are brother and sister.

I realized the other day, and mentioned it on the defective weapons thread, that if Frodo had not been healed from being stabbed form the witchking, there'd be 9 huge scary Nazgul, and one little hobbit in a black cloak running around. How funny!

Bombadil, there was a whole thread on that very subject in Middle Earth Mirth! I made it very uncool with one stupid post though...

Oops! :o How silly of me, I shall look it up!

Chuckle! Amusing idea, the mind boggles ... but I vaguely recall Frodo being told that what would have happened would be that Frodo would be stuck in Sauron's presence being tormented by having to watch Sauron wearing the Ring.

Or maybe he'd have set up house wioth Gollum. ;)

'The Shibboleth of Fëanor', note 53:

Uh, oh.
 

Bombadil wrote:
Yep, that would have been just a bit hillarious!
But consider this:
What if Aragorn had not been so strong, and had taken up carrying the Ring itself?
Or what if Aragorn's true lineage had come out earlier - and he had been the one stabbed? Certainly as a Nazgul he would have been formidable!
I shiver to think of the horror that would have followed. :eek:

I just want to send something out into the void. Most think that it was J.K Rowling who came up with the black cloaked deamons and certain phrases but it was really....wait can you guess...YES! It was Tolkien. Many think J.K's dementors inspired the ringwraiths.....please.....look at the years between the books publishings and who came first, we're talking decades here. And the phrase "Something wicked this way comes!" Yeah that was Tolkiens as well. J.K deserves credit for her accomplishments, however, it is possible for writers to be inspired by other writers.

I am sure no one in this forum would think that, ninlaith! ;)

"Something wicked this way comes!" I thought that was Shakespeare! (Macbeth)
And where in Tolkien's work did you find that phrase, pray ? :eek:

I believe that is Macbeth. Ironic it is too, for the witches say it about Macbeth. :D

oh don't get me wrong it was in that English play ,however, it was said by Sam in one of the last chapters of ROTK I can't remember for the life of me which but i remember thinking wait...that song in Harry Potter said that...sorry I just have alot of friends who like Harry Potter and choose to pick a fight about who was the better author and who said what first.......sorry. oh well everyone else wins i lose.

That's cool, I didn't know it was used in LOTR. Oi, I don't think you can compare the two authors. J.K. Rowling's books give me a different sort of thrill, one so different than what I get from Tolkien's books, it's easy to find those who are fans of one and not the other.

That's a very good point. I'll warrant there's only one person I know that doesn't like LOTR much but that's because he hasn't read the books yet. And basically that's what most people say but everyone else I know loves both. And they do spark different sort of enchantments on the mind.

The phrase 'something wicked this way comes' is not in LOTR. I did a search.

Quite right! To be precise, "By the pricking of my thumbs/Something wicked this way comes."

As for JKR and the phrase, it wasn't even in the novel, only part of a choral piece in the film, based on the Shakespeare text.

Tolkien didn't even LIKE Shakespeare and he felt right cheated by Macbeth, especially the Birnam Wood business, which, as we know, was one of the reasons for the Ents, i.e. what if Birnam Wood really did come to Dunsinane? I am quite sure he would have been offended at the notion that he had a character quote from the Bard! :D

I am not sure that Tolkien had a wholesale dislike of Shakespeare, although the line from Macbeth which you refer to certainly irked him and was the inspiration for the Ents' march on Isengard.

Whatever feelings he may have had with regard to Shakespeare's works, however, it didn't stop him nicking and adapting for Aragorn the "All that glisters is not gold" line from Merchant of Venice. :p ;)

It's in there. I'm sure you read all three books word for word in the last 24 hours.

Now that is just a common, widespread proverb, so you can't say Tolkien quoted Shakespeare when he used it! (and he turned it around: "all that is gold does not glitter"!)

And apropos the witches in Macbeth: in "On Fairy-stories" Tolkien wrote that he thought them tolerable when just reading the play, but on stage he didn't approve of them at all! (And he did write about Shakespeare "Which I disliked cordially" in letter 163)

I am quite sure he did not use that phrase! I'm fairly certain I would have noticed and not forgotten about it. (If I think of all the "proverbs" and wise sayings I collected... ;) Have a look at the quotable quotes, ninlaith, you can see that there are people here who do remember lots of sentences literally!)

Ninlaith, it is also quite easy to do a quick and comprehensive search of LotR if you have a pdf copy of it on your computer desktop...*whistles nonchalantly* ;)

Prince Aragorn of Morocco?
 

I'm not saying that Shakespeare didn't nick it himself. ;)

Courtesy of Google:

so it would fit into his linguistic temperments he phrased it something wicked comes this way. why would i say it was in there if I hadn't seen something like it and I would know I would be dealing with people that knew about his writings as well. that would just be calling for dispute. But I'm done. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. I lose everyone else wins.

Not to go off topic, but I've always wanted to start a thread comparing elements of Macbeth to the LOTR. Please let me know if there already have been discussons. one of the obvious main themes in Macbeth is "Fair is foul, and foul is fair." In the chapter Strider, it is said:

That's almost direct! But it's also seen in many instances in Tolkien's writings, i.e. when Morgoth deceives the Eldar in Aman, and when Sauron does the same to the Numenoreans. Deception is the name of the game. The idea of power bringing corruption is another theme of Macbeth, but one that had existed long before in stories like the Republic by Plato.

Had to throw that in there, but to get back on topic: My friend told me last night that Legolas was originally one of Gondolin? And that he saved Eärendil? If this information is true, it's kind of odd to look at the council of Elrond and know Elrond wouldn't be there if it weren't for that elf with the bow! :D

Bombadil, here's a thread comparing LotR and Macbeth: Glamis? Cawdor? A bookworm's musings

As to Legolas of Gondolin, that appears to be a recycled name, since it cannot be the same person. For more information, please do a search using 'Legolas' and 'Gondolin' - you should find discussions by the experts there.

To go back a little bit the linking between the Rohan royal family and the House of Dol Amroth is even more convoluted thing is even more convoluted since in addition to the first cousins Faramir and Lothiriel marrying the siblings Eowyn and Eomer which would have made their children first and second cousins!!! Eowyn and Eomer were already akin to Imrahil because their grandmother Morwen of Lossarnach was despite her title a descendent of a Prince of Dol Amroth. Maybe a sister or aunt of Adrahil married teh lord of Lossarnach ....... you just hope they opened this up a bit before the noble visages of the Swan princes were afflicted by a Hapsburg jaw.....

I realized something the other day. In Dante's Inferno there are 9 rings of Hell. There are 9 ring wraiths. Also in The Inferno when Dante went to met the big guy in the sky and the big JC and the mother their radiant light was so blinding and moving that it brought tears to his eyes. Much like Galadriel and Celebor's entrance. I just thought it was cool. They may not have anything to do with each other. It's just neat. :D

I vaguely recall something about a Legolas in Gondolin ; my guess is that he just re-used the name and forgot he'd done it, but in one of the HOME books there was suggested a possibility of a reincarnation, since that's what happens to Elves who get killed. In this life, though, he's the son of the King of Mirkwood, and couldn't possibly have been in Gondolin.
;)

my great discovery sam and rosie had 13 children

who is "most" ninlaith? I think alot of people -- well the ones who are time-concious esp. would disprove of such an idea.

YES!