Good quote, Phantom [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Eagles are kelvar; so, could the big eagles be some of these spirits? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

In the same section of the Silmarillion, 'Of Aule and Yavanna', once the ents are accounted for, Yavanna and Manwe remember in the Song their thoughts 'taking wing like birds together'. Manwe says 'By the heed of Iluvatar and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West'. These are special creations, given being by Iluvatar, not just big birds.

But couldn't an emissary of Manwë be a non-Maiar? Even one of the kelvar? We could consider Tuor to be an emissary of Ulmo, in which case an emissary could be one of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Is there a difference between a fëa and the spirits that inhabited Ents (and may also have inhabited the Eagles of the Lords of the West)? Treebeard and the Ents show a much wider range of emotion than Orcs, and are capable of sub-creation as evidenced by their lovely wee songs. It is believable that an Ent could have a fëa and an Orc could not. Whether Eagles are similar to Ents in terms of their behaviour is debatable.

If an eagle did have a fëa, would that mean it was a Maia? I don't think it would have to mean that; not even for Thorondor. I'm thinking right about now that Thorondor and his clan are sentient eagles that have fëar, but are not Maiar. The fact that Yavanna is so deeply involved in their appearance (I hesitate to say "creation") makes me think they are kelvar of some kind rather than incarnate Maiar. My whacky theory on Huan I will explain elsewhere.

Here are two tiny bits of pretty unconvincing evidence that got me thinking about Thorondor along these lines. Firstly, I can't remember his death being described at all, yet we know that he is no longer chief of the Eagles of the Lords of the West by the time of The Hobbit. I feel that the death in battle of such a remarkable character would have been mentioned somewhere! And if he did not die in battle, then it must have been old age. Ergo he was not a Maiar, at least not as we know them. Second bit of "schmevidence" is similar: he is referred to as "Old Thorondor" in The Lord of the Rings... somewhere. How does this "schmevidence" rate?

If Thorondor was a Maiar or at least an Ainor, then it may go some way to explain why Gwihiar was so willing to Help Mitrandir. The Business of healing him from "A particularly nasty arrow wound" could have helped, but then only for one occasion I suppose, the Eagles are proud they would not willing carry one who they did not know to be trustworthy of friendly.

Also *IF* Thorondor was a Maiar (Or Ainor) then Gwihir with the same blood in him, would have been able to see who Gandalf was really, Olorin. Perhaps, if this is true, he wished to befriend someone from the blessed realm, who was wise and powerful. This would explain why he swallowed his pride so many times to carry Gandalf and his friends (I.e. Aragorn in RotK and the Dwarves and Bilbo in The Hobbit)

Or maybe I’m going mad and seeing things that aren’t there... again! :o

Special Creatures.
 

Hello everybody,

This is my first post. Hello!!!

My view over the particular question is that Thorondor, Huan, Thuringwethil, Carcharoth, Ancalagon, Glaurung and every highest rank creature is indeed a Maia. I think that Maiar are prototypical of specific ideas of Eru's Thought, and Valar prototypical of general realms (i. e. light, wind, water, earth, olvar, fate, compassion, kelvar, cold -Melkor Morgoth-, and the like). They are the demiurgs of their own sphere of influence.

I refer to the Curse of Mandos when he tells the Noldo that Melkor Morgoth is indeed a Vala, and even if Eru Iluvatar had made Feanor three times greater than what he already was, he could not stand before Melkor Morgoth.

I think that, generally speaking, no one is able to kill an ainu except another ainu. If it happens, I think Namo Mandos is at work. For instance, Bilbo finding the One Ring, Echtelion killing Gothmog being killed himself in it and similar cases...

On the other side, Great Eagles, Ents, and similar people, have indeed fea, and It may well be that Melian and Thingol is not the only -but the best known- of the unions between Children and Ainur.

Any suggestions???

Manwe Sulimo

I think it's said that they were the only ones. But that doesn't rule out animals etc.... :eek:

Seriously, welcome Manwe_Sulimo! I hope you enjoy the 'Downs. If you want to introduce yourself, this is the place to do it. Hope to see you around!

As far as I am aware, this quote hasn't been presented:

Part of the problem might be that certain relevant texts are hard to date, at least in relation to each other:

These appear to hail from the late 1950s


I have a further question concerning text VIII in any case: immediately after noting the problem of the descendants of Thorondor, Tolkien asks if Maiar can become Orcs, answers yes, and then notes: '... but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force.'

But does this not imply that Maiar could have descendants? If these spirits accept permanent incarnation as Eagles, it seems to me that Gwaehir and Landroval being descendants of Thorondor should not necessarily prohibit the idea of Thorondor being a Maia -- though I certainly agree he should procreate with a female Maia as an eagle, as opposed to a regular eagle.

If so (correct me if I'm wrong about this previous part), Tolkien's conclusion to text VIII -- that the eagles are not Maiar but beasts raised to a higher level (but still without fear, as in plural of fea) -- could be in question, possibly being the result of a problem that may not really have been a problem (upon further reflection?). But yet, according to very next paragraph following the statement about Thorondor, even Tolkien seems to think Maiar could have descendants.

I realize this was very much a record of 'thinking with the pen', but I'm wondering if others share my confusion here -- or if I'm off the path myself, creating my own confusion rather.

_______________

The Osanwe-kenta (c 1959-60) states: 'The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.' Author's note 5, where Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hroar by the Valar.

This singles Melian out, but not being published (which caused Tolkien's 'unfortunately' above in text VIII with respect to Thorondor), to my mind this would still not necessarily prohibit the notion of the eagles as Maiar, if desired.

I don't think the Eagles of the First Age being incarnate Maia would preclude their procreating.
It seems likely to me that Shelob, as 'the last child of Ungoliant' was the product of such procreation.

Silmarillion Of the Darkening of Valinor

The clear implicaton is that Ungoliant was of the Maia, and if she could mate while in the incarnate form of a spider, why not other Maia in the forms of eagles?

It would certainly seem to follow that if Melian could have a child with an Elf by embodying herself as an Elf, then Maiar embodied as Eagles or Spiders or whatever could do the same, with creatures of the same kind as their embodiment. I would think that Tolkien wanted to avoid the possibility of interbreeding causing such oddities as a minotaur, gryphon, etc., creatures that crossed species. And by stating that the act of procreation in particular would bind their spirit -- their very being -- to physicality and thus diminish their power should they lose that body, it makes the prospect less appealing and thus less likely to happen over and over. Makes the rare times it does happen considerably more unique and special.

Still, Tolkien had a lot of ideas about the nature of the Ainur that changed over the years. As I recall, the Maiar were originally the Valarindi, the children of the Valar, and he dropped that notion over time.

Generally speaking, the 'lesser' or 'following spirits' (literary precursors of the later Maiar) appear to have been distinct from the Children of the Valar even in the Lost Tales. For example Fionwe is the son of Manwe and Varda in the Lost Tales, but with Manwe and Varda came 'many of those lesser Vali who loved them' and these are the Manir and Suruli, the sylphs of the airs and winds (keeping in mind that in The Book of Lost Tales the term Valar did not refer to 'power' as in later conceptions).

In later texts the Children of the Valar were said to be 'accounted' among the Maiar, for instance, yet they were distinct by simply being the offspring of the Valar. At some points the Children of the Gods appear to be 'many'. A post-Lord of the Rings text, The Annals of Aman, helps show the distinction: '... and the Maiar and the Sons of the Valar were arrayed as for war.' (section 6), and...

'And with them [the Maiar] are numbered also the Valarindi, the offspring of the Valar, their children begotten in Arda, yet of the race of the Ainur who were before the world; they are many and fair.' Annals of Aman (section 1)

I always had the impression that Ents, Eagles, and Dragons were lesser Ainu (or at least eala) spirits. The Ents and Eagles are described as receiving 'spirits from afar' (I think the quote was posted a couple posts ago) which implies their spirits pre-existed their bodies; which would make them ealar incidentally embodied rather than fear as the spirits of Men, Elves etc.

fea =soul of an Incarnate like the Children of Iluvatar, Dwarves; eala = spirit naturally disembodied, but can take on form by 'self-arraying' or become incarnate (Morgoth, Sauron, Istari etc.) The Ainur are all ealar, but it's never stated if all ealar are Ainur, and some texts suggest there might be at least non-Maia-non-Vala ealar (the Valaquenta says that the Aratar surpass "beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Iluvatar has sent into Ea.") 'Sent into Ea' implies ealar spirits since Men, Elves etc. were created within Ea.


Somewhere in HOME (probably Morgoth's Ring) Tolkien says that Ainur reproducing in incarnate form acts to bind them to their bodies. It seems to be an ability they naturally possess and not something that needs a special dispensation (which Ungoliant in any case wouldn't have received).


I don't think a clear answer on the 'was Thorondor a Maia' question is really possible, since Tolkien wrote both, but to me the version where the original Eagles of Manwe were minor Maiar embodied in permanent physical forms (analogous to the Istari perhaps) seems the firmer one.

I would also have problems with the origin of the quote "mightiest of the descendants of Thorondor". It might just be a conjecture by hobbits getting mesmerized by newfound information and legends from both Rivendell or Gondor. Or even more, who in Middle-Earth could claim knowledge about events of the First Age?

I think we can also dwell a lot on the meaning of this kinship between Thorondor and Gwaihir & Landroval. It might be just a kinship of legacy, affiliation to the good side, a similarity in standing among their kin, might and abilities they possess. All in all, this phrase seems like an interjection from someone whose identity completely unknown to us (Bilbo? Frodo? some scribe?) with no backing from anyone else at the time of the events - not that we can expect many, if anyone, to be able to testify on this issue, to begin with.

Cirdan. But otherwise, I agree that the First Age was probably shrouded in history for most people by the time of the War of the Ring.