Agan you're right.

Rune you're right.

Now can you please both move on?

Playing the newbie card is...say you're a wolf, but you're new to WWing, and you use your newbie status to your advantage by pretty much saying "Hey, I'm a newbie, I don't know what's going on."

I believe what Agan was trying to get at is saying it looks like you're trying to play the newbie card, but that would be looked at as suspicious, so you're attempting to imply it...or in other words she's doubting your use of your newbie status as meaning you're an innocent trying to get the feel for things.

By good case I meant a case which has valid points against someone and is likely to change other players' opinions. And although there was plenty of time, I don't think Cab's a player who's into making lengthy cases.
I think a player who's capable of swaying the public opinion is a threat to the wolves even if s/he was wrong at times.

Whoa, I didn't realise I had created such a monster of a sentence. What I mean is, trying to avoid saying straight that you are new, although you make it quite clear in a more subtle way, looks suspicious to me. And it looks like you were trying to do just that. And it looks suspicious because you're trying to excuse your participating in a bandwagon (or any other suspicious thing you might do) by saying you're just a newbie.

However, there was a question you didn't answer.
edit: xed with Boro. Yeah I'm fine with moving on. :p

People I Would Not Mind Being Lynched
 

Ilya:
Nerwen:
Nerwen and Ilya falls under the same cathegory in my mind. First of all I have had a hard time figuring them out and constantly switches between thinking them innocent or wolves, I guess it is often like this in the early stages. I get that feeling that their contributions are fabricated in order to seem helpful, but of course it is hard to determine what is genuine and what is not. What more is Ilya’s respons to accusations confuses me. . . sometimes I just have a hard time understanding what she means and have to read it over a few time and that might have gotten stuck in my mind and make me uneasy about her. She is fast to admit to playing it flip-flopping and other stuff, this could be a way of trying to kill the accusations before they become a major case.


Aganzir: Her way of tracking wolves and posting annoys me. Also I have trouble telling apart what is just “normal” Aganzir and what is suspicious, so I would also like her to go simply to make my life easier. Also I don’t get why it is much more suspicious to say you’re a newbie in subtle way, than doing it straight forward. (ok Boromir just explained it, I don’t know what to make of it)

Brinniel:I guess the reason that she is on this list is because I don’t follow her reasoning and her posting of late has been of little substance, except for her defence of a fixed/preferred number of representatives.

I just realised that I have totaly overlooked The Ka, but you I will wait till tomorrow before I take a look at her posts.

I will see you guys latter.

Think it this way: you're a wolf and want to bluff by doing something you would never do as a wolf. When someone suspects you of it, is it better for you to say "I would never do so as a wolf" or wait till someone else says "He would never do so as a wolf"? The former is more suspicious.
Now, you're a newbie wolf. You might be suspected if you said "I did it just because I'm new, no-no I didn't have any dark intents," but if you suggested subtly that it might have happened because you're new and don't quite know how to react to different situations, it would be easier for people to believe it since it would feel more like they had come up with it themselves. What struck me as suspicious in Ilya was how she looked like she was consciously and carefully trying to use the less suspicion-raising manner.

Do you get my point?

I get it, but Boromir is better at explaining it.

Notice, for general reference:

There are wolves, I promise. I picked them out myself. :)

Or maybe I didn't pick them out myself. But they do definitely exist. That part's definitely true, I think.

Finally finished reading

It wasn't really. Most of the people I most wanted as my Rep (other than phantom and Boro, who I was sure would have no need of extra votes- and no, I hadn't read page 15 yet so I didn't know that she'd already got 2 votes) wanted me dead. You don't have to be a wolf in order to not want to be lynched. And anyay, I wouldn't be doing my service to the village if I was going to get lynched instead of a wolf.

I hope you had fun doing that. :p

x-ed with this page

Oh, ok. I get it. I wasn't trying to excuse my behavior by playing the new card, in fact that's why I didn't mention the newbie thing to begin with - because it could be seen as fishing for innocence. I said I jumped on the bandwagon because I was suspicious of Legate but I wasn't sure, and I trusted Boro, so I went with his vote. I mean, it's partly because I'm new and nervous about being perceived in a way that'll keep me around, but it was mostly because I suspected Legate and trusted Boro's judgement, and I think my posting reflects that. What were some of the subtle ways that I hinted at it?

As to the method thing, it had to do with keeping all the reps at the same level of voting power, ie. not end up in a situation where somebody has 6 and all the others have 2. Just, you know, being aware of spreading the wealth. I dunno what I would suggest for a method. I think we've been doing that without any formal rules or any such structure.

People don't admit when they're wrong in this game? I was as wrong as wrong could be yesterday. I'm still making mistakes. You can talk about them for the rest of the day, and indeed no matter what I write I think that y'all will, but I'd rather have it on record that I admitted them when they were pointed out to me. I'll try and be clearer for you, Rune. Just tell me where it's muddled.

Ah but since you said you didn't know what to make of his explanation I thought you hadn't understood it. ;)

Eönwë, when I didn't vote for you yesterday, I said you could thank me by posting a list of your suspicions. Looking forward to it. :p

I'm here finally.

And I'm both baffled and flattered to have become a rep and an influential one too...

...too bad this village is confusing me.

Making a throwaway vote is making a statement and making a track, and also fulfilling one's duty.

Oh. :o Yes, that's right.

Not all suspicions can be answered logically. If I say I have a bad gut-feeling about you, what can you really say?

Yes, that's more or less what I meant. Thanks for rephrasing it for Mr Fandom.

And since it has become an issue, I'll clarify something for you, tp and Boro - I don't think you would have primarily picked McCaber just to be sporty, unlike Nog or I could have done. I know you both have a sort of different approach. BUT I think you could have taken the approach I suggested too, in certain conditions. Like, for example, if you were feeling the game was going very well for you.

I think Ilya's defenses of herself have been relatively innocent toDay. She sounds far more genuine than yesterDay.

I have absolutely no idea what to think of Noggie. He seems paranoid.

Hey, Shasta, was that just a banterish comment, or do you really want me to go through them and quote them for you?

Confusion, yes, or maybe mis-statement would make a good word for it?

I'm more and more convinced power drives people crazy in this village... ;)

At this point of the game, my mind is full of horrible ideas, like tp, Boro and Nog being wolves together, or like said before, there being no wolves at all. :rolleyes: But like I said already earlier, I'm going to be disappointed if that's the case...

PS. It's me, Nog and Greenie sharing a computer tonight...


edit: xed with everything on this pages and with Ilya's post on the previous one...

This was the thing I quoted in the post where I first mentioned it.
edit: xed with Loomie

Sure you don't want to plead the fifth there Fea?

However we are working on the basis they exist - known knowns to us at least. To you they are known unknowns - unknown unknowns are at the Moddesses' discretion.

Ah. Yeah. You know, I was on the fence about whether to even write that or not. A cloying type thing but I decided to go for it. I was anxious about ending a thought with "and that looks wolfish," because then people would think I was trying to buy sympathy for admitting that I what did looked like a wolf move. Now I realize I don't have to cater my thoughts to you people. :D

It appears I just closed a tab with my almost finished long post on it. I seems I'll have to redo it.

Surprise surprise.

More on Ilya
 

My earlier, rather incomplete case can be found here. I'm not going to discuss things already treated with there unless I have something new to add.

Ilya's been flip-flopping a bit. In 407 she said she will vote for the one she's the most suspicious of, but a little before she had noted she didn't want to vote anyone who already had a vote (including Legate). In 407 she explained her reasons for not wanting to vote those three people, though. The only person she mentioned apart from them was me (and my backing off of Lommy which parroted what a lot of other people had said etc etc), which, given the context, seems to suggest she was considering voting for me.

She admitted her Legate vote was bandwagoning, and said it looks fishy because it's safe, but she also suggested her newbieness might have to do with it. The latter was a remark I didn't particularly like but that's been discussed already. However, I just realised that one reason I didn't like it was that she doesn't play like one might expect a newbie to play but comes up with things herself and suspects people, at least to some extent.
Also, she kind of put the blame of her joining the bandwagon on Boro; "..to do exactly what Boro did to me yesterday: cast a vote with authority, and convince me to jump on the bandwagon."

She didn't know what to make of the Agan/Lommy brawl and feels there's something wrong in there. Also, she was suspicious of me for a reason she didn't know (later told she had found my reasons for voting Brinn for rep weird, especially that "she won't be the centre of attention" part, but they didn't feel as suspicious anymore now that she knew where her suspicions came from).

Ilya planned to vote Rune for rep, but when Lommy received three votes, she said she could vote Boro instead so there would be two people with three votes.

As for her suspicions today, she said that if Eönwë doesn't start posting with more substance she might get suspicious, she had a gut thing against me, Nog made her raise her eyebrows with his contradictory stuff, and she was not exactly suspicious but watchful towards Brinn. She voted the reasonable & reasonably funny Rune for rep.

Ilya is pretty quick to admit it if she has made mistakes (ie suspicious things). That's generally a good thing I guess, but Rune also had a valid point when he said
I can agree with Lommy that Ilya has looked much more innocent today. However I have no idea if that is because her fellows have had a chance to give her advice in the night or if she's just got more used to the game. Her defense and the reasons she gave for the things she did look pretty genuine though, and she kept her cool pretty well even when accused.

I'm not very concerned about her right now. Still going to keep an eye on her, but I don't think I'm going to vote her.

edit: xed with Eönwë and Gwath

Okay. I'm in at last.

Hah, I overslept my choir-seminar with one hour in the morning due to playing this too late... I'm not going to let that happen tomorrow so I will post quite a less than normally (well, we're actually also sharing this computer threesome so anyway). But I will try to catch up with the latest to see if there's anything that would help right now.

I've seen a couple of comments referring to Ilya's vote as a bandwagon vote, and I felt that I should point out that it wasn't.

Legate had three votes. Eonwe and Gwath each had one.

There were only two Reps left to vote. (Ilya and I)

Therefore the only way our votes could have resulted in an outcome is if we both agreed to vote either Eonwe or Gwath and double lynch them along with Legate.

First- there was no chance of that (I wouldn't have agreed to it). Second, it wouldn't have been a good idea in the first place.

So, the conclusion-

Both Ilya and I had no true chance to vote yesterday, for the actions of the voters who came before us rendered our votes useless.

Say what you wish about her playing the "Newbie card". You could be right. But I see no reason to think about her vote. She didn't actually vote.

Hmm you're right phantom (and now it's me who should be blamed for not checking the facts before accusing :o). However, Ilya seemed to make it quite clear that Legate was her main candidate.

Anyway I want a cup of tea now.

I recommend blueberry rooibos.

Twining's Traditional Afternoon would be my suggestion or maybe Lady Grey...

I'm not that much into rooibos - for some reason I always drink it when I'm about to get a cold, and now my mind links it to being sick. But blueberry rooibos sounds rather interesting since I love blueberries.
If I had had Lady Grey, I would probably have taken it, but now I have to do with some strange African tea which is good but tastes a bit like corn flakes.

I am going to review Nerwen's posts now.

Tea is a good idea. I've heard that it's harder to find WWs when you're thirsty.

I hope morm's having a good time watching his team. It's a tight game. They trail 14-10, but have the ball inside the ten.

As for your team Boro... :(

But it's okay, it's just one year. I'm sure MU will rise again.

Mmm, thinking of Earl Grey now or Irish Breakfast with milk.

I've started taking notes on morm and I'm reviewing Nerwen again as well, although my segmentation of Lifeboat is gonna come first. Should be back around 7ish. Mmmtea.

Agan, how to noobs usually act, then?

Ah I'm so sorry for being so late. We changed to Sky internet recently and it just keeps messing us around. I got spectacularly lost this morning thanks to the lack of internet and it's only just clonked back in in the last half an hour. So, hello! And wow to being a Rep. Guess you guys really went for the getting the quiet ones to talk strategy eh? Anyway, I am going to be around now for a few hours but I have a fair amount to catch up on as all I've done is review who the Reps are so far so I'll be quiet for a bit and then I'll be back with some thoughts.

I just can't wait for this upcoming week, when all I'm going to hear are the bragging Buckeyes. :mad:

Well since we seem to be temporarily adjourning for break, I guess I can go put the coffee on...wish I still had green tea.

Such a miserable day here too. :(

Balogna or hogwash, I still think you're grasping at straws here and yes, I still do wonder why. Gwath contradicting was the minor issue, the thought of his motives behind that contradiction were the major issue. Fullstop.

I'm going to end this debate on my half right here with that.
Indeed.

To other matters then, reading the thread forwards....


The fact that Gil didn't vote for a representative (or actually post other than that short row with Shasta) looks like he's an innocent. I suggest he should not be lynched. Had he a role he would have been a lot more engaged says my experience with him.

Hah, figure this: Nogrod is saying we should leave a submarine alive on the first Days! :)

But really, he doesn't have a role and couldn't care less it seems. So let's not waste a vote on him as he will still count on the tables and if this game turns out bad in the later stages we will need him as a number on our side even if he didn't post...


Some people seem to keep on questioning the rationale behind my vote for Boro as a rep so let me state this (once again :(). On Day5 with a couple of wolves still around I would only vote as a representative those I really trusted the most were having the good of the village in their mind (unless there were some really special circumstances). But on these first Days the selection of the representatives is a different thing and it can be made a powerful tool to have a closer look on some people who wouldn't otherwise be forced to take responsibility and to make decisions - or to see how someone you suspect acts with power invested on her/him.

Remember that those decisions are the ones we can actually read afterwards when we're getting some solid information (eg. the first wolf dies, someone breaks a tie in favour of a known wolf in a suspicious manner, etc...). In this game only the representatives vote so we'll have a bunch of wolves there being just too happy not to be cast into the light of the scrutiny following from being a representative - or they could be forced to make decisions they'd rather not do.

I'm not saying Boro is one of those who wishes to lurk in the shades. Hah, anything but that. But what I'm saying is that we should use the representative-roles also as a way of looking at how people behave and what kind of mark they leave during these first Days when we can afford it. Those decisions can be read afterwards when we have some real knowledge.

Yes, but he could get me lynched you say? Yes he could. But I do think we should be ready to make certain sacrifices if that would help the village win *. Although I must say that looking at Boro's posting toDay looks better - and I have myself cooled down to be sure living some RL in between last night (RL) and this. So whatever way this turns out I think I made a good choice.


Nerwen's gigantic task of going through the discussion between myself and Boro made me first think she was trying to be a bit too helpful without actually contributing anything (and morm actually commented on that as well) but then I realised that if I had time in my hands and were not a party to the debate I might have done the same thing... So I don't think we can actually make a point on that.

I find it interesting that Boro backs tp up with saying "killing McCaber was not something tp would do - and tp says that killing McCaber doesn't smell like Boro... Paraphrasing Ilya *consider some eyebrows raised*

I need to take a break now. I'll see if Greenie or Lommy wishes to post meanwhile.

* and winning that way would be beautiful indeed...

Benefits of an English Moddess ...
 

have cupboards full of the stuff *throws green tea at Boro and Lady Grey at Agan*
Chai anyone?

But personally I am ready for something stronger....:cool:

Sorry guys, I'm really just too tired to post anything now. I'm going to bed. I would have had the energy to post an hour ago, but no can do - three people playing WW on one computer has its disadvantages and so on. We'll see toMorrow, and good luck to the reps.

Good night and Night.

With my inability to properly resolve the story I'm trying to write by deadline, I can't say I won't join you.

I fully intend to write poetry for tonight's narration. Fiction just ain't happening right now.

So give me something fun to poeticise pretty please, village.

Popping in
 

Yeah - I'm sure I want another cup soon. And everybody else talking about tea doesn't help.

Despite going with Boro and such, I think you've been more independent than many new players are. I've seen many newbies pick some player whose opinions they trust almost blindly throughout the whole game, which you don't at least seem to do.

Ooh thanks Mith, you're precious! :D

Now back to Nerwen.
I never get my analyses done because I become bored and refresh the thread every now and again.

Psst Fea...
 

They must realise by now that they are just here to amuse us mustn't they?

I could have easily amused both of you with a grand filibuster by now if I wasn't limitted to one. I need to use it to stop a known innocent from dying or to send a wolf to the gallows. :rolleyes:

Well then, j'ai retourné.

My post was longer but now I'll just have t do it, in a short period of time and at great expense (35546 wight-pounds, that's 71092 wight-bucks for you Americans).


--------------

Ok, now to the main part of the post. Why did some reps with very little posts get picked and who picked them?

Phantom obviosuly doesn't count, as he is phantom and posts more than anyone else. He has the village in the palm of his hand. Of course, even he is in the hands of the Modesses.
Boro posts 26 posts, so I won't focus on him.
Nogrod had 15 posts, but was definately still a large presence.
Legate posted 17 posts and was definately not a submarine.

Ilya made 4 posts then. But she is new, so no-one knows how she plays werewolf it's okay to give her a chance to see what she can do, what sort of stuff she's made of. She also seemed pretty innocent.
It's these next ones that worry me.

Brinniel makes 11 posts. Almost all her posts are one liners. In one she comments on the discussion of restriction of reps, and she has one other substantial post. You can see her posts here.

But let's see what the people who voted for her said:

Aganzir votes on general principles. She says she votes Brinn because Brinn probably won't get many votes, and Agan finds her trustworthy most of the time (as well as sometimes suspicious). She then goes on to say that she wants to spread out executive power.

My guess is that she hopes that Brinn turns out to be innocent, and then if she is then she can be a voice of reason. So, it is faith and hope in Brinn's innocence. When she voted, Brnin, had only made 4 posts. The first is connected with discussing how mant reps there should be. Next there are two one liners and a post count. How is that enough to decide whether she should be a rep? I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with anything about Brinn, what I'm saying is she didn't really give much information. She didn't say what she thought of anyone, and those posts aren't really enough (in my mind anyway) to see whether she's innocent or not. These are her posts if you're interested:

Greenie votes next, saying that she finds Brinn sensible, innocent, ans knows she will now become a rep because of the vote.

Now Greenie has given us a list, and said that she likes Brinn and votes for her. She is one of the players she agrees with and likes, and at least this way she is sure to get someone she wants to be a represntative. There is still the element of hope, though.


Next up: Aganzir. She gives two posts and goes away. They don't contain anything really substantial except a vote and a comment on her not being around at the deadline. It seems a consequence of RL that she posted less than normal, so I'n not blaming her. Here are her posts: Post 1 and Post 2. So who voted her then...

Shasta votes, almost out of the blue, and doesn't give a good reason (or any, for that matter).

I don't really know what to think about this, except that he's probably just voting based on past experiences.

Brinn votes, saying that she wants to spread out votes. Understandable.



Well, this whole thing has shown me that a lot of hope and faith in the players was involved in these votes, but then again, that is sort of the idea. If we were certain of everyone's roles it just wouldn't be as fun. It has also made me much less suspicious of the voters of these two, and it seems I under-estimated the number of peoples' posts (and at first I forgot that the Deadline crossed into the next day for me.



Ok, well I'll leave you for now. I'd better catch up on all the posts I missed while writing this.

Thoughts on people:

Shasta - I really do think he's a frustrated innocent. The last time I remember him being this cross he turned out to be a good guy and I don't think he's the type to use that as a ploy. I know what people mean about him talking a lot but somehow not getting anything from those posts. It's like . . . he's there but you almost don't remember it. However, I don't think that's a bad thing because there is substance in those posts and that means that if he is killed because a wolf thinks it's safe there is often a lot of information to be gained if you then go back and look at them.

phantom - Noisy! So, so noisy. And I can never fully trust him. Actually even with the full and certain knowledge that he was an innocent I doubt I'd fully trust him! As it is though I find myself not bristling at every comment which is how I usually am. That does make me feel more confident in the fact that he might be innocent.

morm - he's flown under my radar a bit but I suspect that's because he's one of these that makes quite long posts and my currently slightly limited time does force me to skim read a bit so I'm probably just missing the substance that he is putting in there. Ooh, though actually he did say that thing about phantom being overly silly. My feeling on that is that if phantom is playing up he's not anything that matters.

Brinn - now I'm not convinced about Brinn. She's one I really do want to take a close look at.

Ilya - surprisingly another one I haven't got much from. Her name has been bandied about all over the place and she's a presence and yet I don't feel to have any kind of read of her.

Sally - pretty quiet actually. Where are the mad posts we're used to? That's a bit odd I must say.

Nerwen - again another I've not got anything on. This is really quite bad. I knew I'd been rushed but I hadn't realised that I'd missed out whole people!

Gwath - as I recall I feel pretty good about Gwath. Oh maybe not actually, that bit about maybe voting for himself was odd.

Ka - her usual self I think, playing around, which again makes me feel pretty good about her.

Boro - ah Boro. I'm suspicious of him. I'm not sure why, it's a bit like yesterDay where I skimmed the thread and just came to the immediate conclusion that Greenie and Eonwe were wolves. There's no actual reason but still it feels right. My problem with feeling like that about Boro is that I'm just always suspicious of him in the early Days so I'd be inclined to take that conclusion with a pinch of salt.

Lommy - do you know what I'm still alright with her. I think I'm turning into Rune, decide what a person is early on and then just damn well stick with that conclusion til the bitter end! The arguments with her and Agan paint her in a good light I think because she remains pretty calm and if she does react it's usually after pretty intense provocation!

Nog - Now this is a really bizarre thing ... I have no opinion on him, and that's just unheard of with me and Nog. I suspect it's because I think he's innocent and I can't bear to believe that! But there you go.

Legate - ah what to do about Legate? I read one post I think he's innocent, I read the next I think he's guilty. I'm going to have to reserve judgement on him for now.

Agan - she is very, very determined this game. Thing is I do play with Agan a fair amount and yet she always seems slightly separate somehow. I don't have any understanding of her usual style of play. Is this ... well, almost persecution of a person like with Lommy normal with her?

Eonwe - we know my feelings on that, I'm going to run through his posts in a minute and see if I can work out why.

Greenie - see Eonwe!

Rune - seems his usual self at the moment. I'm feeling alright about him.

Right I think I've worked out how I feel about almost everyone. Anyone I said I want to take a closer look at I will be posting that up soon. I'm doing it as I go but there are a LOT of pages to get through!

I was this close to using mine yesterday, and I would have if not for two things. :p

I am here and I must admit I have little idea who to vote. (See, here's your three-vote representative. :rolleyes: ;) But hey, actually, feel free to lobby. I'm going to sleep sometime soonish, but not yet in a while.)

I could consider voting
Aganzir
Eönwë
Gil-Galad
Gwathagor
Ilya
mormegil
Nogrod
Sally
Shasta
The Ka
the phantom

I wouldn't vote (yet)
Boro
Brinniel
Greenie
Kath
Nerwen
Rune

My problem is that the three I suspect the most right now are the phantom, morm and Nogrod. And although I have kind of got rid of the way of thinking that you need exceptionally good reasons to lynch a veteran loudmouth ( :rolleyes: ) it would feel silly to lynch one after that was already done with not-so-spectacular results yesterDay. Or actually, I think it's just that I think I suspect them simply because they have caught my attention by making such a show by being loud and aggressive.

I'm leaning to give Ilya the benefit of doubt for now, and maybe Aganzir also. For some reason, I feel a little reluctant to lynch Shasta too even though he has failed to convince me of his innocence.

So maybe I'll vote sally, Eönwë, Gil or Gwath semi-randomly. But somehow it doesn't sound too good either. I would otherwise seriously consider Ka, but I wonder if she'd vote me for a rep after I had listed her in my suspicious category if she was a wolf...


edit: xed with Eönwë, Kath and Shasta

I wasn't aware you suspected me.