This is actually an interesting thought. I've realised I don't have time to look as in-detail as I'd like, but to make it easier for others if they want to take a look, I've combined the DT-voting list with the LT votes (where G, E, U, stand for whether their empowerment would mean that Zil was Good, Evil, or Unknown):

Eomer (G) --> Lottie
Sally (U) --> Lottie (2)
Lalaith (G) --> Lottie (3)
Brinn (G) --> Eonwe
Legate (E) --> Boro
Lottie (E) --> Boro (2)
Nerwen (E) --> Nog
Eonwe (G) --> Nog (2)
Shasta (U) --> Legate
(Nog (U) --> Eonwe)

Anyway, I've got to go now, so:

++Nog

Ok I see what you were getting at. Well, as you were worried about the last category, would everyone be ok with this one? It would be good to get it agreed early. If people are really desperate to make the categories equal I would go along with that, reluctantly, if only to get a decision for the long-suffering Dead and move on to talking about something else.

Lottie prey
Nerwen
Boromir88
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005

Lottie predator
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc
Nogrod


None of the above
Eonwe
Brinniel

Anyway, if the bad dominate the good among the Dead, why would any live baddie even need to manipulate the list ? The list would have been useless anyway and the Dead would just be voting to confuse us and empower their own.

Speaking for myself, I'm an "innocent of wavering suspicion"- but obviously I would say that, wouldn't I? And part of my problem is that I'm not entirely easy about Legate, either.

So can we all agree to Lal's list at #523?

Now Eomer, you mentioned the strange narration. Looking at the previous ones, I see the mysterious "buzzing" is also mentioned at the start of Day 2 as well (but not other Days) and this time it seems as though the significance is being emphasized. So I'd say it does indicate something unusual happened Nights 2 & 4.

That is my thought too- though it could also be, as Brinn suggested, that they are getting afraid of the Hunter and Ranger.

How likely is it that he would have been picked, considering how much he's been under suspicion?

Good catch, Nerwen.

Because of the kill on Night 2 - and Morsul clearly wasn't a visitor since he didn't come back - we can (surely!) presume that a wolf was created Night 1. No buzzing on Night 1, so surely the buzzing has nothing to do with wolf-creation.

The buzzing could indicate that EW and GW targeted same villager. Possible, though what are the odds of that happening twice?

Also, that would mean that Mith was a wolf kill. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but the narration for Night 4 does mention the swirling of many powers. This could indicate that more things happened on Night 4 than they did on Night 2, because nothing like that was mentioned on Night 2.

Could it have something to do with the visitors? Night 2, visitor who dies is created (before the visitor who leaves, which is the smart order for the GW to proceed imo). Normal wolf kill on that night. Night 4, visitor who leaves is created and immediately sent to dead thread (Mithalwen); plus wolf target and successful Ranger defence. That could fit.

Well, there's such a bewildering number of things that *could* happen during the Night in this game that I'm almost hesitant to guess- but now you mention it, the narration also says, "*whoosh* CLANG *doink* "Who put that there?"" Which could indicate thwarting or blocking i.e. a Ranger save.

Well I think we are all going to eventually end up in a situation where we won't have much choice. I mean I don't think a Wolf would openly manipulate the list, but let's not "monopolise" it. But of course if we can make it "better" in this case, why not.

I say yes.

True, although he has always managed to get out of that, also it would have been a good blind-side from the Wolves.

Well any of that is plausible. If Mith was the Visitor, then we are going to learn it soon. As Nerwen said, the options are really many. The only thing I would conclude is that "many powers" indicates considerably more things happening than normally. But since we don't really know what, it doesn't really help us very much.

Anyway: considering looking at the votes, with assuming Zil's innocence, the most "Wolfy" votes among those would be Eönwë's and Boro's, which were cast clearly at the moment when the bandwagon was basically secured. Then again this is all bearing in mind that roles might keep changing in-between the Days, so anybody who was innocent at that point may not be anymore. But there had to be some baddies around at that point, and at least some of those could have easily used the bandwagon to hide their votes.

EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen

Okay. As I may not be able to get on again later-

++Nogrod

I have been vacillating, but there are just too many flags out.

I don't want to leave it at this- if I have time, I will look at Legate and Sally, who has been a real submarine, which I would expect from at least one of the baddies. Also perhaps Brinn, mainly as being the other leader of the "lynch Eönwë" movement. I get the meta reasoning that Eönwë might have been chosen as a wolf, but without some better indication, I think it's really odd to try to lynch someone who has arguably been the single most productive player.

I am also concerned about Boro as- what I said last Night- a "default lynch". I was doubtful about him earlier in the game, but my feeling is that he was just being silly then and is actually quite unlikely to have been turned since precisely because he was under suspicion.

That's all for now.

Need to really re-read the last page or so, but I also am becoming uncomfortable with Sally. Something about her style seems off, though it's difficult to articulate exactly.

Now to try and take a look at Nog since he's come up a lot in discussion today. I'd still personally lean toward voting Legate for now, though.

Questions
 

1. Why,why, WHY did Nogs throw in what looked like a 'wasted' vote for Eonwe after deadline when his own neck was on the line along with that of Lottie and Boro?
2. Is there any possible way Eonwe and Nogs could be on the same side?
3. Why do both Nerwen and Eomer trust Eonwe' innocence so much?
4. Why are Sally and Shasta so damn quiet?
5. Wouldn't Brinn have been a great candidate for wolf conversion?
6. Am I being a real airhead by vaguely trusting Nerwen and Legate to be innocents?
7. How has Boro survived this long?

Innocent of what though? We both know innocence is all based on one's point of view.

++Legate

Call it retaliation voting, but the way I see I'm not close to evening the score. He's got a 3 vote head start on me. The tunnel focus is rather unusual and strange from Legate.

I'm not going to deny my early intentionally trying to be suspicious so I can have a good, relaxing time with the dead. Going to blame someone who spends most of his days with a cubic ton of pressuring responsibilities, just wanting to be silly and fun for a while, try to take it easy? The sudden shift is I have a conscience and early on if I'm going to be random, possibly destructive (although I'm not sure how? I'm not the one who's tried to undermine communicating with the dead thread) then it would only be to myself. As more folks drop like flies, if I continued to be self-destructive I would be ultimately harming the GW efforts...and that's not something even silly me wants to do. I'm going to whine and complain how I never die in these games, but it is what it is.

You should have to admit yourself, Legate, the switch I've done was really stinkin' obvious. Not that I wouldn't be trying to play mind games as a wolf, but the confession you say that pinged your radar doesn't make sense if I were a wolf. First I'm a crazy sacrificial wolf, just trying to be disruptive...and suddenly I get turned into a wolf a 2nd time and decide I don't want to be the sacrificial wolf?

I'm back! And very suspicious of everyone.

I'm quiet cause I'm sick. :(

I like everything about this post. :p

Word.

(And I was hoping to go to sleep early finally this Day... but we were watching GoT with a buch of people - Legate and Lommy icluded.)

Now we're at the business end of the game, where everyone appears to have acted suspiciously, I'm becoming more and more inclined to vote based on who I would have picked were I the EW. Not very scientific, but there you go.

I was trying to make it in time but was just late (waiting for that 30 second rule, like I told you). I did consider voting Lottie but it kind of felt cowardish because all I had on her was that I suspected her, had the feeling she was on the evil side - but I do most often suspect her so that isn't much to go for. Therefore I decided to stick to my real suspicions and see what happens as it wasn't exactly clear who were yet to vote and whom the Dead might empower.

Of course there is - even if that would be a sad state of affairs looking at the mutual suspicion.

There is at least one simple answer - although the question should probably be put more precisely: "Why do both Nerwen and Eomer say they trust Eönwe's innocence so much?"

I see Shasta already answering. Sally then, could be busy in RL? That's always an option. But it might make her a good target to convert into a wolf as well.

Probably even better than Sally. Mith would have been even better so it's kind of odd she died last Night. Maybe some of those strange things going on?

With the former? Yes. With the latter? I don't know. I don't get an evil feeling from him just the normalish to-and-fro - but with the same breath I must say his early "point" toDay against Boro was quite odd - I mean he'd have jumped on that kind of a suggestion by someone else himself.

There have been "better" candidates to lynch?


Not a bad strategy. It is at least a POV worth looking things from.

PS. quite funny that I have two votes - one from someone who speculates on different things happening here interpreted through the premise that the wolves have the upper hand in the Dead Thread, and by one who makes a special show how the wolves fill the Living Thread... :)

I agree that suspecting someone on the sole grounds that they could make a good wolf conversion candidate is not a good enough reason to want to lynch them. My reason for voting for Eonwe yesterDay was because I found his Inzil vote suspicious combined with his extended focus on the Dead Thread.

I think it's also good to keep in mind that just because someone is the most productive player, it doesn't make them more innocent. I've found in many WW games that the most productive players turned out to be wolves.

Exactly. And no, I'm not wishing to go into the debate of "what it means to be productive" - but to say I'd use a different term here with Eönwe. We'll probably all understand in a roundabout way well enough what we are talking here.

What makes me worried about Nerwen (among some other things) is that she uses the fact that someone discusses a lot of some general or strategic issues as a sign of being a goodie with Eönwe and as a sign of being a baddie with me. And she also says I'm suspicious because I talk about other things than suspicions & voting near the DL, which actually isn't the case - but which is the case most obviously with Eönwe.

So arguments seem to be to her only tools to help clear Eönwe and to cast shadow on me - whatever the logic of her defences / accusations or the truthfulness of them is. We innocents need to actually try find the direction they're pointing at - we do not know who it's okay to lynch and who isn't. The evil on the other hand can always just try and see what kind of argument s/he could use in any given circumstance to further her/his own evil agenda.

I've been putting the pieces of the jigsaw together in different ways and here's a quartet of evil that might fit together: Eomer, Eonwe, Shasta and Boro.

When I make Nogs a baddie, fewer pieces fit.

What is depressing is that even if Lottie was evil the EW could have made another wolf last night instead.
I feel very worried about our prospects, innocents.

You're just saying that, Brinniel, because you would obviously have been chosen by every one of us by now. :p

Anyway, we have to try and second-guess our enemy.

Just look at the list of The Living:

Nerwen
Boromir88
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc
Eönwë
Nogrod
Brinniel

That is what I would call 'loudmouth-heavy'; it's only being balanced somewhat by Shasta & Sally being quieter than normal. Add the lynchees to this: Inzil fits in nicely; and Loslote certainly got stuck right in.

There's one or two quieter types in there. What I need to consider is: how safe is the quiet wolf in this place?

Nogrod, I don't think you have a very valid excuse for voting late. After all, you were around a lot yesterDay and if you were truly unsure of who to vote, you could've spent more time thinking about other villagers rather than place so much attention on the Dead Thread and other distracting subjects. I mean really, those scenario posts might've been hilarious early Day One, but in the final hours of Day 3, I just found them to be a headache and waste of time getting through while trying to catch up on so many posts.

The problem with Nogrod is that I do find his behavior suspicious, but then I wonder if maybe he really is just an innocent allowing himself to get muddled up with the complexities of the game. If he is innocent, he makes to be very easy lynch candidate for the baddies.

Chin up Lal, we're bound to get info at some point. Still got the duel to come. And the smaller the village gets the more likely we are to bag one of these hideous wolves.

Unless Boro was the first pick by the EW (possible but not probable - looking at Boro's behaviour in the end of D1?), it would have been pretty daring from the EW to pick him. Could Boro be the EW? Well his D1 behaviour would have been even more daring in that case.

Looks like pretty safe indeed.

Looking at it from the other direction: whom the EW should not have picked aka. who are those people you'd lose as lynchees more probably than not quite early in the game? It's like looking at the people who are now Dead (whichever way they died) Inzil, Lottie, Lommy - they tend to get lynched quite often, quite early. Same actually fits me - and my predicament doesn't look that easy right now either.

Which is kind of a scary thought - if Zil and Lottie were both innocents (too risky for the EW to pick) - we have then lynched only innocents (and if Eönwe and Nerwen have it their way with me you lose third innocent). Well, maybe those Nightly oddities meant our gifteds are doing it better than we are.

well he could have been a wolf trying to get into the Dead Thread early to mess it up...

Well you'd think...we've barely had over a page of posting today though....

I got stuck at work super late again. *whines* I'm home and hopping on my laptop in a few minutes.

Also finally back here and want to vote soon and sleep soon.

Even though I am still suspicious of Nog, his last post makes me waver again, because some of it sounds very genuine. At the same time Boro's again rather re-kindled my suspicion of him. I mean, that talk about "I am not even close to evening up the score", what kind of a talk is that? Who cares about retaliation, but why would you justify your vote by saying "you voted for me this many times, so I have to do the same"? Again, what absolutely puzzles me about Boro is that this behavior does not make any sense. Like not even for a Wolf. But for whom then? I mean if a Cobbler existed, I would be fine. But if the circumstances in this game are either that you are innocent or a Wolf or EW, then after eliminating the basic possibilities that at least I don't think you would act this way if you had an important good role, then its more logical to assume you have a bad role.

Well if you put it that way, that isn't the issue, I'd perfectly understand that. However...

Well if you had been turned, you wouldn't have much of a choice, right? I don't know, I was just puzzled from the start by your behavior (but ok, yes, we've been through it), but I remember how you tend to play (or at least tended to play; it's true it has been some time and styles can change) when innocent, and neither of these behaviors simply fit that. I am used to inquisitive Boro poking people, sometimes even to the point where it becomes visible if they bend or break, but this was just a completely different game than what I am used to from you. The "suicidal tendencies" looked as if you were being played by Nilpaurion Felagund or something (but ok, you've explained that, or at least claim that). But your behavior simply goes over my head here. And yes, part of me has been thinking that for a long time that I should have probably given up on that. But another part of me is that well, if there is someone who is acting clearly fishy - in clearest sense of the word - it was you, so getting you off the hook just because I don't know what to think about it is not really an answer.

Agh. Gotta think.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog, Lal, Eo, Brinniel and some...

I'm yet to be convinced on why would the wolves want to be there? They win with the numbers here. And the communication is at the paper-telephone level already without them, so what's the real gain - especially as they will be totally outnumbered there in a Day or two from the beginning of the game?*

It is possible some people actually thought the evil side would like to put one of them there though. But I'd presume the EW had actually thought that out.

So yes, he could have been, but I do doubt it.


* EDIT: noticed a place for misinterpretation here - the added edit is underlined.

That's actually a pretty good point. Which brings me back to my thoughts earlier on regarding Brinniel, Mith, and Sally. Okay, now Mith is dead, plus Brinniel isn't really that quiet anymore. Problem is, it's really difficult to keep track of people when they are not posting much. Like Sally hasn't posted practically anything toDay. (Nor much before, for that matter.) But exactly that kind of tactic could keep her completely off everyone's radar.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog

I'm very suspicious of Boro too, mostly because I'm thinking that the EW will reckon if he survived the start of this game then he'd survive anything. I'm wary of Nogrod too but there's something making me hesitate jumping on that bandwagon.

I have a very strong feeling that Nerwen is involved somehow but I don't want to guess how just yet. Wish I knew Loslote's role right now...

Lalaith and Brinniel are just too.... I don't even know the word, just too themselves...

Still the only one I'm leaning innocent on is Eonwe, and that of course might have changed since yesterday!

Something I think we can all agree on, though, is that I'm way less suspicious than normal. :D

Actually the biggest submarine is poor sick Shasta...(16 posts) followed by Sally and Brinn (22 each). Eomer is fourth lowest living poster with 32.

I think I have problem following most everyone's track... :rolleyes: *

I have no chance of doing this toDay, but will try to do it toMorrow if I'm still around - if I'm not, I suggest someone does it - or some people do it collectively (and if someone already has this kind of a list, please share it).

So looking back to everyone alive to see whom they have actually voiced suspicion over. I mean voiced a suspicion, not anything like "X is always suspicious" or first Day "you must be a wolf" -banter. But like actually declaring one suspects some another person X.

I'll bet that most evil can be found from among those who have not voiced open suspicions on anyone or have made them of only one or few people - possibly such whom others have voiced suspicions already. Voicing open suspicions is always dangerous and suspecting many draws you near the gallows as people, quite naturally, feel bad about it and, if innocent, start to see evil in the suspecter (or if evil can use it as a reason to vote back - or at least suspect that person back).

Also seeing all the "real suspicions" might help to build a larger picture of relations, which there sure are already now. Just looking at the voting patterns is not that productive, especially as we don't know things like we normally would do after lynchings.

So that's a suggestion for toMorrow.

Now thinking of voting...


EDIT: The beginning is an answer to this by Legate: "Problem is, it's really difficult to keep track of people when they are not posting much."
EDIT2: I'll promise to stop editing...

You are basically saying what I'm thinking here.
I haven't been too much concerned about either of them because they mostly have been saying lots of things which sounded sensible or genuine. And this sort of "I am participating in a positive manner". Which nobody says can't be a perfect cover for a Wolf. But I am absolutely not opening that can of worms now.

Well there were so many times people have said "and yesterDay he seemed innocent, but toNight he might have been turned..." that if after the game, we learn that he's been the EW or something like that...

But anyway. I want to decide some sort of a vote. I really, really don't want to keep voting Boro for four times in a row, but I wonder if I'll be at peace ever until his role is revealed. But okay, now I will step back, get everything ready so I can go to sleep, try to refresh my mind at the same time and then come back and vote.

EDIT: x-ed with second Eomer, Lalaith, and Nog

2 votes for Nog and 1 for Legate.

So who's around? And, as is tradition, anyone for no-lynch?

I seem to be, even if I though trying to go to bed early. But yes, half an hour only so might actually sit it to the end.

Few thoughts to follow.

This has probably already been said, but I feel like finding out Lottie's role ASAP will give us some good ideas about others. For instance, if she is a wolf, Nog probably needs to shave, etc.


Nerwen: Pinging my radar as someone to watch, but not yet suspicious of her.
Boro: Not likely a wolf, but perhaps an evil wizard who knew he couldn't die via lynch? Watch, now this is how I die. :rolleyes:
Shasta: My poor sick little wolf boy. *nuzzles* Poor darling. Don't hurt him! (To clarify, this is what I call him quite often. I feel his quietness is not suspect, but it also admittedly doesn't give us a lot to go on.)
Sally: A good little cupcake.
Eomer: He of the no-lynch. Frustrating (:p), but I still believe him to be good.
Lalaith: No read whatsoever. Lal, what witchcraft is this? I can never read you!
Legate: Reasonable enough, but he seems oddly....chill? This of course isn't a bad thing, but his tone reads like a past Legate wolf. In my top few candidates, but not my priority at the moment.
Steve: My top choice for lynch toDay based on yesterDay, but see below.
Nogrod: Uhhhhh, his vote yesterDay looks highly suspect coupled with my suspicion of Lottie. I wouldn't be averse to lynching him toDay out of caution, though I'd like to know Lottie's alignment first, as something doesn't sit right.
Brinniel: Quiet like myself. I have a niggle I need to dig into further before I let my imagination get the best of me, so I'll check it out later and post it tomorrow either here or on the Dead Thread. It may be nothing, but I'll find out.


x'd since Lal's ranking of the submarines