Encai

Day 2 – Gives Inzil a fourth vote when Mac has three, although due to cross-posting she would have thought it was Inzil's third to Mac's one and her own two. Iow, if there's anything behind it but suspecting Inzil, it would probably be self-preservation.

Inzil

-On Mac's “your side”, day 2 “You're lucky I missed that, as I could certainly have thought it voteworthy”

Day 2 – his “I was the first” stuff. Defensive? Indeed. Leonine? Not so much. I still think a lion would have checked before making that statement.

Post #304, Inzil gives Mac his second vote when he already has 2 himself (3 actually, but he crossed with Wyth's vote for him) and Encai has 2. I don't think a lion would do this, either.


Lommy

- Mac says of Lommy, day 1 “This would make me suspicious as well, for the same reasons as above. "The lovers are not as bad as I said before, but they're still very bad". The thing is, would a wolf state it in all-bold? “
The sort of wishy-washy “suspicion” a lion might use either to nudge suspicions toward an innocent while keeping his hands clean, or to distance himself from a fellow. However, it's worth noting that this is NOT the most suspicious thing about Lommy's statement: Mac is glossing over, and drawing attention away from, its hintishness.

- Lommy on Day 2: “Evil!Mac and evil!Volo seem like options too, but I think they were both suspected more by someone else, and the phrasing is not especially seerish at least in this post. “ and in the same post “And what is this talk about wolves wanting to off the hunter?? *looks especially at Rikae* Whenever people suggest the wolves killed someone for any other reason other than seeming seerish, it smells of covering trails to me. The wolves need to get rid of the seer, first and foremost. There needs to be a good reason not to go for someone who looks seerish to them.”

So, Gal wouldn't look seerish to Mac, but it is apparently inconceivable that no one looked seerish? I guess this is a point in Lommy's favor. I doubt a lion would be so locked onto the idea that Gal must have looked seerish for some reason.

Nog
- Reading Day 1, Nog is really quick to cast suspicion for flimsy reasons. Everything seems to be a possible wolf-slip in his eyes.

- Day 2 - Nog is the one who pointed out that Gal's playing style was different and it would have made her look generally gifted, while also saying that she didn't seem to be a seer who dreamt of Mac.
I agree with the latter point: others suspected Mac, so it wouldn't make sense for them to target her for that reason. I consider it likely the first reason is indeed the reason they went for Gal, but I only noticed it in retrospect, when Nog pointed it out. Perhaps Nog pointed it out to his fellows on the previous night as well?

Also, kind of a meta point against Nog – he isn't suspecting me, or arguing with me. When he's innocent, he pretty much always thinks whatever I'm saying is flagrantly wrong and goes on a crusade against it. I can't imagine I'm suddenly talking sense in his eyes; more likely, he's evil.
In particular, he picks up on a couple offhand/throwaway comments of mine and agrees with them in post #236. It gives a “buttering up” vibe.

Gives Mac his 5th vote when Inzil already has 5. At this point Inzil would still be lynched – lion!Nog would be making himself look very nice in the event of a Mac lynch, but not necessarily lynching Mac. I don't believe for a minute he wouldn't do this. Nogwolf is notorious for throwing comrades under the bus.

Once again I'm running out of time. At any rate, from what I've looked at so far
++Nogrod

Is the clear winner.

The Kitwaggon part I: Origins
 

So, other than basic suspicion based on the Skipwaggon the Day before, the first real post I found to suspect Kit is Nog's:
Then: And then the start of the slip discussion: x'd with Rikae's previous post, but already finding more reasons to suspect Kit:
Second time it gets quoted, this time with even less context!

Conclusion: Definitely something fishy. Just because so many people latched onto it already without checking (or at least pretending not to check) the context. If you're going to claim it's a slip, at least it should seem pretty convincing. But in this case, it only really looks like a slip without the context. And, I mean, a sentence that actually makes sense is always far more likely than one that doesn't and is also a slip (Sorry, started ranting there). Anyway, my point is that I don't think that everyone who latched onto it had the best intentions. Both Nog and Lommy were already suspecting Kit, so perhaps they could've overlooked it, being clouded by suspicion, but usually they're quite careful, so it seems unlikely that it's the case for both. And as was already proven by this point, pointing out a 'slip' (I'm not even confident that Mac's was one anyway, not that it matters now) is an easy way to spread a suspicion. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the three turned out to be a lion.

One more thing to note: mention of the 'slip' disappears after Rikae and Kit explain it away, but Lommy and Nog are still much more keen to lynch her after it's discovery. This could go either way: either it helped inflame their suspicions, or they're determined to have her as a lynch candidate.

Oh, and asking to clarify the winning-conditions was the most unhelpful thing I presume...


This is why Werewolf is so darn hard and fun to play - the same sentence can stem from different positions... it can be like you said that you were just speculating that if Mac was a lion and if you were a lion you wouldn't have taken that kind of a risk - or, if you actually were a lion with Mac you might have slipped that you wouldn't have done that were you him... Hmm... putting it openly in this way actually gives me second thoughts... yeah, the latter interpretation doesn't make that much sense - or at least makes less sense I tohught earlier it would.


EDIT: X'd with at least this page...

Oh. I see Rikae finally opened the game. :smokin:

Now if you really are a wolf, you were too hasty I think.

Although I'm also kind of disappointed... I thought you would have made a better one. I could have done a better case against myself. :)


Yes, I have been suspecting you Rikae on some gut-level for some time already but purposefully avoided a clash as I have kind of enjoyd the game without fire and brimstone thus far - and because I've had better candidates for suspicion anyway. So with you I have been kind of waiting if you make a move... and now it seems you took the gloves off... Hmm.

There is an interesting football match starting in a moment and I'm going to watch it and have some dinner, but I'll be back for the last two hours. Let's see if there is still something in the "Mac-diaries" or other promising leads. If not, then let's lynch Rikae - or me. We can nicely afford even lynching me toDay with the numbers we have if you then lynch her the next Day.

Well, sorry, but I have to spend the day with my in-laws, so you'll have to take what you can get. Be my guest, though. I'm sure you can give us all the real reasons you are suspicious. Who would be more qualified?


I suspect you for not suspecting me -> you've suspected me all along, really? If you're innocent, it's a pity friendliness kept you from doing your best to hunt lions (I don't believe that for a second).

I'm just an ordo and have little time to play - you could do worse.

That's all the time I have now - I won't be back before deadline, I'm afraid.

Well, it looks like I probably won't have time to look at Kit suspicion yesterDay, and to be honest, that's probably for the best. She just seems to have been scapegoated and pinned with all sorts of small suspicions, and that doesn't really tell us much. What I will say about it though is that Nog brought up the slip again (even though it had already been explained) in #364, Zil entertains it in #365, and Greenie chimes in at #370 Lommy practically mentions as fact in #377.

Honestly, this defense makes me more suspicious of you than ever. For one thing, your point about how you wouldn't have killed Gil if you were a lion could easily be one of the reasons you killed him in the first place - so that you'd be able to make that point if suspicion circled around to you.

I had been ready to suspect you - that had been my reasoning behind voting Kit yesterDay, that one of the two of you were probably a lion - but this looks remarkably innocent. I don't agree with your logic, of course - Nog is one of the people I think looks most innocent out of this whole village - but I don't think this is a move you'd make as a lion. Even if you and Nog were packmates, neither of you were heavily enough suspected to make lion-on-lion worthwhile, and if Rikae was a lion and Nog wasn't, it wouldn't really make sense for Rikae to attack him out of the blue like that, especially not in the absence of players obviously ready to take the bait and run with that suspicion.

In that case, then, I'll have to revise my list:

If these people are evil, they have well and truly fooled me:
Nog
Eomer
Sally

I don't think these people are evil:
Greenie
Wythy D.
Rikae
Eonwe

I wouldn't be surprised if these people were evil, but I could well be wrong:
Zil
Boro

Pretty sure, at this point, that these people are evil:
Lommy
Encai

I'd be willing to vote for any of the four people in the suspicious categories. If we lynch one of the top three, I'll be very put out.

Worry me
Lommy - The bad feeling I've had about her still hasn't left, plus there's the Kit stuff.
Nog - Reasons mentioned before (mostly the Mac and Kit stuff)

Worry me slightly less
Zil- For reasons mentioned before, but down a level because I always end up suspecting him.
Encai - There are numerous times when I've read something that doesn't sit right with me, but it's hard to pinpoint anything specific.
Boro - Quiet. Too quiet. And then he jumps in to fight for Kit. Something about that seems off.
Greenie - Seemed overly innocent at the beginning, then the Kit stuff. Might be trying to misguide.
Rikae - Always scares me. And seems to find similar people suspicious, which, in a game with so much uncertainty, makes me wary.

Don't worry me, which worries me
Eomer - Has seemed pretty good so far
Sally - No idea what she was up to yesterDay, but nothing seems particularly evil. She really hasn't said enough though.
Lottie - Has been quite quiet. Nothing particularly incriminating.
WyDry - Still have no idea

Note: Order within categories is just according to the modlist.

edit: x-ed with Lottie

I'm not entirely comfortable with this. An innocent might say that, but so might a Lion trying to look unconcerned. I've done that myself as a baddie before.

I can see where the Lommy suspicion comes from. I still wonder though why, if she's a Lion, they would have killed one of her voters. It seems reckless and unnecessary, but I guess stranger things have happened.

Most people yesterDay thought Lommy was at least a little fishy, though (the notable exception being Encai, who had her solidly in the middle). The village was roughly divided down the middle between outright suspecting her and thinking she was 'kind of fishy' but not wanting to commit to full-out suspicion yet. She needed something to be able to point to as a solid reason why she isn't a lion, and I think we saw it when she claimed that she would never have killed Gil if she were a lion. I think that was the reason for the kill - she wanted something that would point back so obviously to her that she could then say she wouldn't have risked it.

A succinct summary of yesterDay's shenanigans. Steve is my spirit animal.


Quick list then, while I'm rushing through my lunch.

Guilty:
Lommy
Boro

Leaning guilty:
Rikae

Not sure:
Greenie
Nog
Lottie
Encai
Wyth
Eomer

Probably innocent:
Dun (see my post yesterDay)
Steve

Ok, I need to go now, so

++Lommy

Hmm. That's a pretty involved scenario, but a LommyLion is definitely capable of it.
It worries me somewhat that Eönwë, who at first seemed eager to lump me in with Mac, then broadened his suspects to include Nog and Lommy, has now voted for the latter.

Stuff has been coming up at work so I don't know if I'll get another chance to post/follow what is going on before the deadline. The argument for Lommy is compelling, but I'm going to stick with my first instinct.

++Inzil

If I'm wrong about him I'm sure I'm going to look bad toMorrow, but oh well.

And you see how that argument is working in my favour? Seriously, when have you last seen a kill pointing at someone resulting in most people thinking that person innocent? And that doesn't remove the fact that had Gil been the hunter, I would quite likely be dead.

Also, what on earth is with this sudden Nogrod-Rikae fight? This looks way too staged to my liking. Our two wolves deciding to go at each other so that one looks more innocent when the other one dies? Or the lovers pretending to have a fight?

Okay.

I looks like Rikae actually started preparing her attack already a bit earlier with that oddish: If trying to convince some others that we should not "try to catch the Bear" (as there is no way of doing it) but hunt lions and actually getting the winning conditions clarified is steering the conversation in unhelpful directions - and not only that, but also unhelpful in such a magnitude it actually makes her seriously suspect me for because I did those things... well I can't see we're playing the same game or sharing the same reality. :rolleyes:

So that was bogus.

The rest is as fabricated.

That's D1 and everyone should try to find any suspiciousness everywhere. That's the point of the game. Also, I think there were two possible "slips" I discussed (although I'm not sure if they were both on D1), which obviously isn't "everywhere".


I'm not quite getting this... but it seems clear all actual suspicion here is in the end, with: Perhaps Nog pointed it out to his fellows on the previous night as well? Sorry but I don't get what is this about. Perhaps someone said something to someone during the Night? How does it relate to anything - fex. if a lion said something to a fellow-lion at Night why should s/he say it again during the next Day? Or if a lion says something during the Day how do you infer from there s/he could have said the same thing the previous Night - and what that has to do with anything?


Need I comment to this? I used to enjoy dogfights and duels years ago... and I had more enthusiasm making crusades. We people change and peole who have played with me both years ago and more recently know that.

I didn't use two votes to immediately get Mac lynched - so I'm a lion? Now, give me a break. I've thrown mates under the bus in few games where I have been a wolf but my experiences of that are mostly negative - and in this-sized village it would be stupid for a lion to lynch a mate as now with only two lions left the numbers are really against them. And really: if you take that kind of possibility as a proof of my lionity, well I don't know what to say about the quality of your points?

First some close reading:

I have been suspecting you Rikae on some gut-level for some time (Me)
you've suspected me all along (Rikae)

but purposefully avoided a clash as I have kind of enjoyd the game without fire and brimstone thus far - and because I've had better candidates for suspicion anyway (Me)
it's a pity friendliness kept you from doing your best to hunt lions (I don't believe that for a second) (Rikae)

Honestly Rikae?

So all that is fabricated... I think the lions are getting desperate and they had to come forwards with some radical attempts.

That said, I'm quite ready to vote Rikae toDay as I don't see why an innocent or normal gifted would go to such lengths making that flawed case against someone she doesn't know the role of?


Uhh... the game was palyed overtime and this seems to have taken me longer I thought... Back reading now.

A Brief List
 

Innocentish
Greenie - the same as before
Eomer - still the confusion

Medium
Boro - sounds more honest toDay, still baffled by his behaviour
Sally - no idea, and not appreciating the emotional manipulation
Wyth - no one should be under the radar this late but he kind of is
Encai - I've suspected her all along but at the moment she's not really the one I'm the most worried about
Lottie - I don't like the way she's been at my throat, but that might be knee-jerk
Inzil - Eönwë's argumentation has made me re-evaluate my conclusion that he and Mac weren't fellows, but I'm still quite unsure

What on earth
Rikae and Nogrod - this staged fight has made me basically re-evaluate everything I thought about them, just what??

You don't even know how tempted I'm to act on Nogrod's suggestion we lynch one of him and Rikae. And obviously I'm not in favour of lynching me toDay, even though that would at least shed light on who's the one that has painted target on my back toDay.


edit: xed with Nog

Gil was unlikely to be the hunter. If you were a wolf, that might have worried you a little bit, but if you needed to make yourself look better, I don't think the risk would have been too high.

Also doubtful. Neither of them were under a ton of suspicion, there was no need to make a sacrifice gambit at this point. Same goes for the lovers, but even more so - lovers would not pull a sacrifice gambit. They would lose if they pulled a sacrifice gambit. And there wouldn't have been a reason for them to try to separate themselves from each other, either, since they haven't been voting together and they haven't interacted much. I'm pretty sure the Nog-Rikae spat is just between two innocents.

EDIT: xed with Nog and Lommy

Also, Lommy seems to be doing her best to egg on Nog and Rikae - trying to get the attention off of herself? Or just enjoying watching to non-lions at each others' throats? I don't like how she jumped on that at all.

++Lommy

For her reaction to the Nog-Rikae spat, as well as the other reasons I've listed earlier.

Okay. I'm not too interested in using the last hour to this, but just pointing at it... Where on earth did you Eönwë get that idea that Kit's "slip" was somehow definitively and positively "explained"? A different interpretation to it was sure given but there was no way of telling which interpretation was correct until after Kit died so by hindsight.

I'm leaning towards Nogrod's side in this debate with Rikae.

Rikae, if I may ask, what's with your obsession with Enca? I've read all your posts from the last 2 days and I just don't see much of anything there; but you keep repeating you will vote for or suspect Enca for 'previously stated reasons'.

I'm still not happy about having to follow Steve, but it doesn't look like I'm going to have a lot of time. Places to go. And for what it's worth, I'm inclined to trust Lottie.

++Lommy

x/d with Nog and Eomer

Here at last, sorry it took me so long, now trying to read at least something before deadline. Sorry, I'm a mess.

Well surprise I want the attention somewhere else. This Day hasn't been very productive with most of the discussion still revolving around whether voting Kit was justified or not, and at least one of the general top suspects being innocent. Whatever happens toDay, I hope toMorrow is more productive.


edit: xed with Greenie and Inzil

There does seem to be a concerted effort to lynch Lommy today, and it reminds me of yesterday against Kit. Going to check those votes now.

I just read through the thread, and here's my list as of now, with names in no particular order:

Probably Innocent
- Boromir - I think he's being bizarre, but I don't think he'd act that way as a Lion
- Greenie - hasn't raised any red flags for me
- Wyth - he's never played before, but I know him rather well IRL :Merisu: and I think he's being genuine

????????
- Lottie
- Eonwe
- Eomer
- Nogrod
- Sally

Suspicious
- Rikae - I wasn't suspicious of her before, but this business with Nogrod makes me wonder if she's a Lion getting nervous
- Lommy - the Gil-kill might be a clever bluff, designed to throw us off her trail, since she was in second place for a lynching yesterDay
- Inzil - Eonwe raised some good points about him, and I was suspicious of him since the beginning

Finally some sense! *hugs Eomer* Although I guess it would be poetic justice if I went the same way as Kit did after being a part of her lynch. :rolleyes:;)

I believe the tally is:

Rikae -> Nogrod
Eönwë -> Lommy
Wyth -> Inzil
Lottie -> Lommy 2
Inzil -> Lommy 3

I think Lommy's voting record is more suspicious than Gil's death. Otherwise I'm a bit puzzled about this wagon gathering behind her.

Rikae acted in a way I can't see any innocent acting - but have hard times seeing her act like that as a lion (or lover) either - unless they are in really dire straits and desperate.

Does anyone remember what the kind of "general air of things" earlier toDay - like was there some clear favourites to be lynched? I'll check it myself but if someone has the feel of the Day already I'd like to hear that. I mean that might actually explain why Rikae is acting that panickedly - if her mate was clearly the top suspicion.

So like at the time - or a bit before - when she thought I was leading the discussion to unhelpful directions... :)


EDIT: X'd with Eomer onwards...

Inzil and Loslote both voted Skip on Day 1; they both voted Kit on Day 3; and now they've both voted Lommy today.

The one anomaly was Day 2, when Loslote voted for, interestingly, Inzil. Inzil voted for Mac, who of course was lynched. Inzil was the second most likely to be lynched.

I am not sure what to take from this.

++Lommy

Clearly. No time for more. Beyond too busy. More toMorrow if I'm around.

It's worth a try, as much as anything else at this point:

++Inzil


edit: xed with Sally...

Ok, I'm annoyed with myself because I'm obviously missing something that's staring me right in the face. Either Lommy is 'clearly' a baddie, or there's just open collusion going on. :rolleyes:

Being my own apocalypse clock, I guess
 

Rikae -> Nogrod
Eönwë -> Lommy
Wyth -> Inzil
Lottie -> Lommy 2
Inzil -> Lommy 3
Sally -> Lommy 4
Lommy -> Inzil 2

Well, at least there's no 'throwing my vote away' this time, because I still suspect Inzil for various reasons and I also sort of suspect Lommy for certain Mac-interaction. :p

Interesting... this is actually Rikae's first post of the Day:
Lottie corrected her on the next post... but well, it looks like she was here toDay with a firm intention to try and get me suspected.

Could you actually clarify this a bit Eönwë? Was that the "being in Mac's shoes" thingy or something else?

So we have the makings of a LommyWagon and InzilWagon. How do I get this deja vu -feeling?

Well, I can't deny I have suspected them both during the game, but I'd be actually rather leaning towards lynching Rikae at this point.

Of course if no one else is up to it it would be a waste of a vote.

Nog, it's Lommy or Inzil. Where are you leaning?

Football's almost on... ;)

++Inzil

I'm still suspicious of Lommy, but her attitude toDay has been more exasperated than defensive. I have been suspicious of Inzil from Day 1, and Eomer's post #549 makes me wonder what his voting record means. Essentially, I want to know Inzil's role more badly than Lommy's at the moment.

Belgium vs. USA... yes.

I don't know. Inzil somehow feels like a scapegoat that was used, but what Eönwë fex. said toDay might point him being a lion...

Lommy's votes were somehow eye-catching and I could truly see her as a lion - or even more as one of the lovers...

I want to know both their roles. Alas! no double-lynches!