Never mind, it's 4th cousin.

Also, it's your turn in the Password thread. If you manage to include both Targlin and Zimraphel into it somehow, I'll love you forever. :D

Thorin III is indeed his fourth cousin; over to you.

I know it is; tomorrow, I think.

hS

So who are the grumpy Elf's 1st cousins twice removed?

Ha, this is a trick question: Thranduil's family tree isn't developed enough to know!

... all right, all right. I'm going to assume Maeglin? In which case we're looking for his grandfather's great-great grandchildren. As Eol doesn't have a known parent, that means Fingolfin's. So... Turgon is the only one of the High King's children whose line endured. Idril is his only child, and her grandchildren are Elrond and Elros.

(As for Thranduil: if my latest version of the Elmo family tree is accepted, Thranduil's grandfather is an unrecorded son of Elmo, who was also the father of Amdir of Lorien. That makes Amroth Thranduil's first cousin - but Amroth has no children. So Thranduil definitely has no first cousins twice removed. ^_^)

hS

No, not Thranduil or Maeglin's. If I meant Maeglin, I would have said 'naughty elf'. But you did mention the 'grumpy elf' in your reasoning, so think about it.

Well, the grumpiest non-Thranduil elf I mentioned was Eol... come to think of it, while looking up 'Glindur' for the Passwords, I think I saw a passing mention of Eol as cousin to Cel'n'Cur. So is the answer the Sons of Feanor?

(And if so, is there any more detail to that family tree? It would imply that Eol was first cousin to either Finwe or Mahtan...)

hS

No. The Elf I had in mind was only grumpy in the movies. Specifically, FOTR movie.

No, no I do not. But for some weird and wacky reason, Eol has a tendency to show up in the same pages as this 'Glindur' chap. You'd almost think they were related or something.

hS

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/0d...34abb11e96.jpg


Targlin, Morlin, Morleg, Glindur

Okay, so Agent Elrond. First cousin means grandparents' other grandkids. His grandparents are Tuor and Idril on the one hand (only had one kid, so not them), and Dior and Nim... loth? on the other (had three kids, two of whom died in the woods). So he didn't even have simple first cousins, let alone twice removed.

Except.

Except Elrond also has another parent: Maglor, who adopted him. His adoptive grandparents are Feanor and Nerdanel; that makes Celebrimbor his adoptive first cousin at no removes. But... as far as I know, that's the last of House Feanor.

So I still can't find anybody.

hS

Oh, but first cousins twice-removed are different than first cousins. According to the chart I've found, first cousins twice removed are your great-great-great-grandfather's grandkids. So who's Elrond's great-great-great-grandfather? Once you know that, answering the question should be easy.

Oh, Mandos take it, they count weirdly on the upper edges. That's entirely unfair and makes no sense besides. I knew I remembered there being something weird there, but convinced myself I'd made it up...

Okay. Checking the charts, it's Elrond's great-Great-grandparents we care about, of which he has up to 16. Working through his grandparents, they are:

-For Nimloth, the only one named is Galadhon. His other known grandkid is Celebrian.

-For Dior, his grandparents are:

--Thingol and Melian, who have no grandkids Dior.

--Barahir and Emeldir, ditto.

-For Tuor, his grandparents are:

--Galdor the Tall and Hareth of Dor Lomin; their other grandkids are Turin, you, and Nienor.

--Belegund, father of Rian. She's his only known child.

-Finally, for Idril, her known grandparents are Fingolfin and Anaire. Their other grandchildren are Maeglin and, according to the Silm, Gil-Galad.

Which makes a perfect set of six, for you: your four favourite Edain, plus Elrond's wife and boss, were all his first cousins twice removed.

hS

My four favorite Edain?

Um....unless Glindur is an Edain, I only see three Edain in your explanation.....

Either way, you're up.

Of course he is! It's another name for Beren, son of Balin, son of Balrog, right? :D

A-ny-way: other than marriage, what is the relationship between Celeborn and Galadriel?

hS

Actually, it's another name of Morlin, son of Alvar, son of Melko.

And second cousins, I believe.

Correct; to you.

hS

And since you mentioned Beren.....

Beren's grandfather's son's grandaughter is who?

First inclination was Rian & Morwen, who I know are Beren's cousins. Looking at the family tree... it seems to be Rian and Morwen.

Wait, though: Beren has two grandfathers, and his other one is named... Beren. So maybe you're sneakily asking about him! His paternal grandfather is Beldir, whose son is Belmir, grandfather of Emeldir Man-hearted. His maternal grandfather is Malach (son of Marach), whose son Magor has... no known granddaughters.

(Steward Beren of Gondor, interestingly has an unnamed grandfather, because his dad inherited the title from his cousin.)

So, three actual Edain for you this time. :)

hS

You're on.

Okeydokey, let's try this:

In the first seven generations of the House of Elros (ie, Elros himself and the six generations that followed him - so down to Ancalime's generation):

-How many people's names contain the names of various Valar?
-What is the relationship between the oldest and youngest of these?

hS

Well....

Vardamir
Manwendil
Aulendil
Oromendil
Nessanie

That would be five. As for relationship, it would be great-great-great grandfather and great-great-great granddaughter.

I count six, but I admit Vardilme is a borderline case. (I also want to count Cemendur as named after Yavanna Kementari, but that's too much of a stretch.) You're spot on about Vardamir and Nessanie's relationship, so back to you.

(But also, yikes those first few generations were obsessed.)

hS

All right, something simple.....

Who is Elestirne's husband she grew estranged from?

Okay, first guess is that sounds like it could be a variant of Erendis, which would make the answer Aldarion. (Also, y'know, there's not that many estranged couples in M-e.)

... aaaand it was, but not actually as a variant. I wonder whether there was a bit of the old 'not Angles but angels' joke in there - "Alá Erendis, ono Elestirnë." (As a joke made by a Pope about Old English speakers, this ancient pun falls well within Tolkien's field of expertise, so I may even be right!)

hS

Correct.

Well, there is Feanor and Nerdanel, as well as Alvar and Isfin (albeit briefly). And then Feanor died and Alvar died and Isfin died, so I guess they don't count as estranged anymore.

I am very slowly rereading The Sil in between tasks, and I am newly impressed with Nerdanel's skill in restraining and guiding Feanor. Much more impressed than I was on my first read at the ripe old age of 13.

Sorry about the tangent. She's just a very remarkable estranged wife.

Not to mention Yavanna and Mr. "Nevertheless they will have need of wood" Aule... still, it was a nicely constrained list.

As far as I'm concerned, this sort of tangent is fantastic. Like a lot of Tolkien's women, Nerdanel is a fascinating character who I wish had more written about her. Her Gateway article includes comments like "She was not considered among 'the fairest of her people'," and "the element nerd- in Nerdanel perhaps derives from nerdo ('large, strong man')," which paints an even more peculiar picture - along with the fact that she pretty firmly broke with Feanor at the point he was exiled and she said 'nah, I'm gonna go live with your hated stepmother'.

Speaking of whom...

How many female Elven descendants does Indis have?

hS

Tolkien Gateway says eight.

I didn't actually check the answer myself... ;) Aredhel and Idril, Galadriel, Celebrian, and Arwen, Finduilas... that's six by Silm-canon, but yes, Findis and Irime makes eight. :)

Huh, and Irime crossed the Ice with Fingolfin. Given that she was "generally known" as Lalwen, I wonder if Lal[aith Ur]wen was partially named in her honour? After Fingolfin's death, she would have been the Grand Old Lady of the Noldor in Middle-earth, and she seems to have lived in Hithlum, so it's not at all implausible.

Look, now I'm tangenting. ^_^ To you.

hS

Nice.

And speaking of those two, what is the relation between them?

(And yes, they do have one via Turgon ^_^)

Indeed they do! Lalwen is Lalaith's first cousin's great aunt by marriage, while Lalaith is Lalwen's grand-niece's husband's first cousin.

hS

Correct.

Almost all of Tolkien's family trees are exclusively among what Treebeard calls the Free Peoples, and the Eldar call the Incarnates or Mirröanwi: Elves, Dwarves, Men, and Ents.

Name three (or more!) parent-child relationships which do not meet this description.

(For the purposes of this question, petty-dwarves, Hobbits, Druedain etc count as part of their ancestral races.)

hS

Mim/Ibun, Sam/Elanor, Primula/Frodo.

Easy enough. ^_^

I'm guessing you wrote this before I put in my clarification (possibly it went up after you'd posted, though I didn't see your post when it went through). Hobbits and Petty-dwarves are genetically human and dwarvish, whatever they might think (and they're most definitely Rational Incarnates!).

hS

Draugluin/Carcharoth, Galathilion/Celeborn, Celeborn/Nimloth.

(Oh, and also Ungoliant and Shelob, but they are more of an ancestor/descendant than parent/child)

How is that?

Perfect. I also had Lightfoot/Snowmane, and of course Melian/Luthien (only one of whom is an Incarnate - the Ainur don't count!). I'd completely missed Ungoliant/Shelob, who I think are mother and daughter, and only thought of Draugluin/Carcharoth after I'd posted.

I wanted to phrase the question more loosely, to allow Gwaihir & Landroval to appear as brothers, but that opened up the sibling ties amongst the Valar, so I didn't. :)

Back to you!

hS

Another easy one.

Name Rodwen's uncles; both of them.

Easy: Finwë and Finwë.

Obviously neither of those are Finwë (father of Finwë, Finwë, and Finwë); I mean Finwë the father of seven lesser Finwës (from Third Finwë to Last Finwë), and Finwë the father of no Finwës at all (though he did wind up as two Finwës himself).

The Shibboleth of Feanor is great fun, but the House of Finwë naming conventions were daft as all get out.

hS

*chortles*