It happens during the Day, so before/during the votes- but we won't know until afterwards.

No objections.

So the Dead will empower someone BEFORE they know what way that person is voting or if indeed that person is going to vote at all?

At the risk of seeming a complete cow the extra bod should go in the last category if it must be Alphabetical order has clumped unreliable voters with a debutant player which the Dead may not find ideal. Sign up order would be preferable. Otherwise I would agree to anything just to get a different topic of conversation. I am about ready to do a Boro. Is this a personality trait to be so obsessive or some kind of distraction technique?

Darling Mith, you're about to get one, I'm going to be posting something about the Wizards and the roles and stuff very shortly....

Please before I rip off an arm and beat myself to death with the wet end.

Starting the day with this so I don't forget. This sounds fine.

Lommy cast suspicion on Loslote very early on.

Eonwe calls Lommy out for this.

Interestingly, on Day 2, Lommy was then the first to jump onto Loslote's suggestion that Eonwe had 'changed' in Day 2 (post #221) and proceeded to cast the first vote for Eonwe.

Even on Day 1 (post #61) she brings the same thing up, making this comment for Eonwe: "if I was dead I'd empower him" The explicit nature of this comment is fascinating.

My thinking is that the second lynch seems like more of a set-up than the first.

Apologies, I meant the second night-kill, not lynch. Meaning Lommy's death sets up Eonwe.

Before or after, I think - they simply vote at any time they want, and during the final calculation, it is all taken into account.

At the risk, I actually see what Mith means here. But maybe we should just try not to let this fall into another two-hour debate and hope the Dead would be able to pick somebody? I mean Pervinca is a new player, sure, Nog's opinion on the whole thing notwithstanding he is probably going to vote, Shasta has posted thus can be expected to vote, Sally likewise plus she needs to vote so she doesn't get modfired... I think we could leave it at that. (Also I don't want to now spend more time researching what was the signup order etc. But maybe we can use it toMorrow?)

It's important, but once we get this done, we can focus on the Day's content and all. It's next on my list.

EDIT: x-ed with two Eomers

I know it is important but it is now 2/3 of the way through the day and we have not really discussed much that will affect our votes today in favour of finding something out after day's end.

Anyway, here are my thoughts about the wizards...as we are on Day 3 which I believe is technically the first day we could see a Weeeeeezaaaaard’s Duuuuel.

For both EW and GW, as far as I read the rules, creating roles is as good as scrying - because trying to 'turn' the other wizard will reveal them.
For the GW, Gifted are a nice bonus but not essential to winning. At the beginning of the game, the numbers are on his/her side.
However, the EW, to improve chances of victory, needs to make as many wolves as possible and keep them live if s/he can.
So not creating wolves some nights or rushing to send wolves to the Dead Thread would be rather reckless policy and I am going to assume that the EW has been creating all the wolves s/he can.
(From this, it would also follow that even if the EW discovers the GW s/he might hold fire on the duel, and would be more worried about keeping their identity hidden.)

So, at this stage, therefore, after three Nights, chances are we could have the maximum permitted pack of wolves (ie 3) in our midst - the EW would be creating or at least trying to, each night. Of course, any one of following things could mean we have fewer than 3:
* if Zil was a wolf
* if there is a Ranger and s/he protected another player from conversion
* if the EW tried to turn a gifted
* if the EW tried to turn the GW

Anyway, the other thing I was thinking was that the baddies might be worried by now about a Hunter being amongst us. They killed Lommy, and Lommy suspected Zil and Nerwen, also Eonwe who she voted for. Presumably, the wolves killed her without worry that a Hunter-Lommy might take one of them down. So, should we feel less worried about Eonwe and Nerwen as a result of this?

And finally - this is directed at my fellow innocents - if you haven't been turned yet, it might be worth wondering why. The wolves wouldn't necessarily want a new member of the pack suddenly turning their suspicions around.

Basically, my guess is that we've probably got 3 wolves now, but Eonwe is not one of them, because the Lommy kill puts Eonwe firmly in the spotlight. I doubt Inzil was a wolf, but we might find that out soon.

My top suspect for evil puppet-master is still Loslote.

There are unfortunately lots of excellent wolf-candidates now. Shasta, Sally, Mith, Brinniel and Lalaith would have been my top choices on Nights 2 & 3 (let alone Night 1!). 2 wolves in that lot, put money on it!

So I was going to do a proper analysis of Lommy, but ran out of time- toDay has been somewhat difficult for me as far as participation goes. She was rather similar to Morsul in being an active player who was not widely suspected; different in that she herself had a range of suspects, which she listed both Days.

Voted Boro.

Voted Eönwë.

Oh come on Eomer. Since when have I been an excellent wolf choice? I have only survived once which was a fluke. Apart from being founder member with darling Anguirel of the Fenris pack, my main claim to fame was revealing out of sheer boredom.. Noone in their right mind would actually choose me.

It does, but on consideration I agree with everyone else here that it's better to keep the groups to choose from large, in case of someone failing to vote or sneaky group/category manipulation by someone who knows more than we do. Better to get some definite information now than no information, and hope that if things were complicated, the visitor will be able to tell us why.

On which note, a question for Kuru: Will it be clear from the narration whether someone is killed or is a Visitor Who Leaves?

Which is why I was putting forward the tentative theory that wolves might chose her as a potential Hunter who was unlikely to cause them harm.

Another question for Kuru: If both wizards are still living, does 'equal to or outnumber' include the EW?

I wouldn't indicate who was who, but there would be two people going into the Dead Thread at once (probably) so it should be fairly apparent something odd has happened.

Yes.

Ok, going through Lommy's posts:

During Day 1, her first suspicion whatsoever was towards Lottie for discussing possible EW strategies, although she was being flip-floppy about that (several times in several posts). She also very strongly advocated for a vote and she was also the first one to actually go through with it. She found Boro the most eyebrow-rising, said about Eönwë "if I was dead I'd empower him" and called him a new phantom in the next post for his elaborate plans on Dead communication.

On Day 2, she expressed puzzlement on the death of Morsul, pointed out that it points at Lottie, but that such a conclusion would be hasty. Continues to think Boro "shady".
After that, there started a very long argument against Nogrod's lack of faith in the Dead thread. At the same time, she was posting many generally helpful suggestions (try to prevent a tie etc.) which made her (in my opinion) look more innocent. This might have been one factor for her death.

She also pretty much dismissed the idea of Wolves killing Wolves.

There also came her initial reaction to the Inzil-Nerwen incident, which went like this:

Afterwards, she had more to say to Nogrod about the dead-strategy discussion, some unclarities about Boro (but it doesn't look like she would suspect him), and agreeing with Lalaith once again that Wolves killing Wolves doesn't make any sense. Then, in relation to Eönwë's "conspiracy theory" about Boro-Wolf and EW-Lottie, she said:
In the same post, however, she continued:
Which was the suspicion for Eönwë which appeared yesterDay and based on which (presumably) Lommy eventually also voted him. Then she said she didn't understand what the Nerwen-Zilcident was about:
She also wasn't entirely convinced by Lottie about Eönwë being shady.
After this, she posted a list of people (post #236). Ok, I can quote it in full:
People she lists as "suspicious" are Nerwen and Zil because of the spat and then Eönwë. Apart from that, Boro and Lottie and Nogrod are sort of in the "watching" cathegory (like it seems she could come back to vote for some of them if it came to it). So if the reason for her elimination should be some basic fear of Lommy being on somebody's trail, it would be one of this group - except for one important detail which I will get to below.

Then, after getting an explanation what the Zilcident was about, she responded:
But soon afterwards, after getting responses from the people in question:
This basically seems to have put the matter of the Zilcident to rest for her. And that was effectively the last thing she said before voting (for Eönwë - quite obviously, after she did not have such a strong suspicion against Zil and Nerwen anymore, he would be the only left in that cathegory).

So the interesting thing is that out of the people who were in her "suspicious" cathegory, it seems like actually at the moment of her death she did not suspect two of them much anymore. That's an interesting thing to consider if the reason for her death was because the Wolves thought she was a threat to them. Because at that moment, Nerwen would (presumably) no longer be suspected by her (or at least not as much as before).

So what altogether? She certainly was not a "no-trace" kill, because she offered opinions on lots of things and people.

I don't think she said anything that would look specifically "Gifted"-ish, but then again, we are in a bit different situation than normally.

She was also widely trusted, or in any case, at least generally not suspected. She was going after quite a few people, too, or mentioned the possibility that she could come back to them. A frame-up would be also a possibility, the question is the frame-up of whom. Eönwë? Or even somebody else like Lottie? (The problem is we have the classic dichotomy of "this could be genuine, or it could be a bluff".)

EDIT: x-ed basically since my last

I had just time to skim through the thread to see how much there is to read today to notice this.
Exactly. Empowering the most suspicious would be not just stupid but kind of ununderstandable behavior. I mean why on earth anyone would do that? So the idea was (and is), naturally, empowering a vote for the most suspicious player.

In a hurry for an hour or two still, but will be back then.

Maybe slightly, but there's still only a 1/13 chance of hitting a Hunter at this point. Is there any evidence of Lommy changing her behaviour in a way that makes her seem more huntery?

The really cynical and paranoid part of me wonders whether this could be a wolf-Lalaith (potentially a newly-wolfed Lalaith, because she didn't seem suspicious to me yesterDay) attempting to make a fellow wolf-Nerwen seem more innocent by grouping her with others. Like a strong version of the 'a wolf wouldn't pick someone who leads back to them'.

The problem in this game is that now potentially just under half of the living (6/13) have a role they didn't start off with, so I'm just seeing potential new wolves everywhere. I think I need some time to reread.

That's actually a good point. Except - and that is exactly the thing I've now been trying to wrap my head around - Lommy did not seemingly suspect Nerwen anymore at the time of her death (see above). So essentially, a Nerwen-Wolf could have also felt safe even under such circumstances. This actually makes me want to take a second look at Nerwen, since I haven't really questioned her before very much.

She did (again, unless it was a double-bluff or whatnot). That is a fair point.

Indeed. I think I also want to focus on the quieter players a bit more and also generally reevaluate my approach to things. Also in light of what Lalaith has just said. The next level is the fact that many people haven't even posted on Day 1 - that would also have been pretty good thing from the EW to pick one of them on the next Night, because then they would start "fresh".

EDIT: x-ed with Nog and Eönwë

Now that sounds like a very stressful Night on the Dead Thread - if I'm reading the rules correctly, the Dead can only vote to find out the role of someone currently in their thread, and this means they'll only get one chance to attempt to guess which of the two dead is the Visitor (before the Visitor returns to the Living Thread).

Ok, so that means worst-case scenario now we have a 4:9 evil:good ratio with the EW still having one wolf pick to spare! :eek:

So is the plan final? If so should it not be made clear to the Dead?
maybe with a reference to the post in which the settled version is.

I thought I merely had allergic rhinitis but I have some sort of summer bug, and feel grim so would prefer to have an early night so I may have to make an early decision. So I suppose looking for differences is the thing to look at.. and then the odd spread vote followed by bandwagon. Heyho

Mith, continuing with the new topics of conversation - on Day One you strongly suspected Lottie and voted for her but on Day Two you mostly suspected (and voted for) Zil.
How do you feel about Lottie at the moment?

Yeah, I very much misread that, which is why I was so confused.

I'm still a little confused by some of the practicalities of this on the Dead Thread side (e.g. do people have to come up with a list which orders people by suspicion? And how late to wait before a 'suspicious enough' person is voted by living?) but it seems like it worked last time, so I'm going to give it a look before I make any further comments on it. But I assume the general takeaway for the Living is that we're going to need to start voting earlier?

If those three are a wolf-pack together (i.e. Lottie as EW, Boro as N1-wolf, Nog as N2-wolf), I won't even be annoyed if they win.

Ok, should be back in a few (probably 3-4) hours when I have more time.

edit: x-posted since my last

I didn't stop suspecting her. I just put her on the back burner since Inziladun was hacking me off with his negativity. I was a little surprised so many also voted for him since I don't think they all expressed strong views during the day. Loslote IIRC didn't engage with my suspicions - which can be a wolf tactic but agreed with me enough to find it a bit creepy as I think I said. I don't think she has posted today so I will look back and see if I still find her suspicious in context of subsequent events. And who supported their vote. I can appreciate the risk of cross posts but it may be suspect in some.

Right, because it's a quiet Saturday for me and I'm not at work, I've been able to be a much more conscientious player. So much so that I've read through the whole bally thread all over again.
The reason I asked about Lottie is because I can see, reading over the thread again, more clearly where the suspicions about her were coming from and I've moved her further up my suspect list as a result.
I still feel very uncomfortable about Boro and would probably have voted for him toDay but he says that he might not be back toDay. For various reasons I feel uncomfortable with voting for someone in absentia.
I'm feeling more paranoid today - more baddies about. I trust fewer of you. Some old friends - Mith, Nogs - would have been good candidates for turning, I think. Eonwe too - he survived the "has Eonwe turned" attacks yesterday and this might make him a good candidate for turning last Night. Except of course that puts my "wolves feared Lommy was a Hunter" theory on its head. Hmmm.

I suppose this game is a bit different but would Hunter be top priority for the GW? I can't recall it working well very often. Either goes pear shaped or it is irrelevant. If Lommy were Hunter that would simly be a first choice.

I specifically did not think Lottie to be the EW on D1 based on her behavior - I felt the EW, being a (virtually?) lone baddie would likely attempt to blend in and go with the flow of the village - something I felt Lottie hadn't done. I'm willing to be overruled, though, considering my horrid participation thus far (and today's won't be much better, I'm afraid, but I will be here sporadically).

Hunter could have been second choice.

Anyway, I'm not saying there IS a Hunter. I'm saying the wolves might have been worried there was one....but maybe I'm overthinking it.

Has anyone read toDay's thread in one piece? (Like I did just a moment ago)

Even sharp-minded people like Legate mis-interpreted the scheme for the Dead-thread and adding more options only makes it more misreadable - not to talk of even and odd days, alphabetical order or signing-in order or whatever. And which is the authoritative version - the one that is presented first or the one that is presented last etc.

Happily I see Eönwe backtracking at least that much as to agree that we shouldn't think this kind of scheme should be the default mindset here in the living thread for the whole game through. Good. We're starting to talk sense, I'd say.

I have nothing against trying it for one Day here in the beginning - well, toDay. There is probably quite little the Dead can tell us toDay as we (well, you) lynched no-one on D1. So we might as well try to find out whether Zil was innocent or not.

That said, I'd still caution us to take it (and everything from the Dead thread) with a pinch of salt as Eönwe put it - and that's actually the whole point: we don't get 100% information from there as much as we wished we could. Therefore, let's not try to puzzle them with requests like "none of the above". :rolleyes:

(I was thinking of writing a parody-version of a Day in the Dead-thread during the day I was off doing other things and if I have time I might present one for you - but now I'll take a look at some more pressing matters aka. is there anything to say about toDay - or our voting toDay.)

Voting D2

Inzil -> Nerwen
Lommy -> Eönwe
.07 Eomer -> Lottie
.19 Lalaith -> Eomer
.22 Legate -> Boro
.25 Mith -> Inzil
.41 Nogrod -> Eönwe 2
.51 Brinn -> Nerwen 2
.53 Pervinca -> Inzil 2
.53 Nerwen -> Inzil 3
.55 Lottie -> Inzil 4
.58 Boro -> Inzil 5
.58 Eönwe -> Inzil 6

(Only the votes during the last hour are given a timestamp aka. minutes into the last hour)

Well, we shure didn't tie the vote yesterDay.

The problem is that it's pretty hard to draw conclusions from there as baddies as well as goodies might have jumped on the band-wagon in the end - the former to blend in and the latter to secure there is no draw on votes.

That being said I'm a bit uneasy with how easily people jumped on Zil-wagon with quite little to argue for it (Pervinca might be pardoned - and s/he (?) voted quite early only to tie Zil with others in the tally). Sure, I myself somewhat suspected him, but I tend to do that everytime we play, so I'd not take that as a reason to actually vote for him, at least myself.

An announcement
 

Pervinca Took has requested to withdraw from the game.

She was an Ordo.

Living
Nerwen
Loslote
Boromir88
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc
Mithalwen
Eönwë
Nogrod
Brinniel

The Dead
Morsul the Dark
Inziladun
Thinlómien

Escaped
Pervinca Took (Ordo)

Btw. Legate: could you tell us what you were thinking with this one (on Lommy):
In the end of the Day1 you were a strong advocate of the no-lynch policy and actually tried to achieve it - or at least tried to make an impression you tried to achieve it, as you voted already three minutes before the DL and knew there were people still voting, but commented on your vote that it "should be a tie". And here you then say Lommy's driving for a lynch made her look more innocent?

So what has changed, your loyalties or something else?

Sad. :(

Come bravely to the next one! You'll get the hang of this!

Hear, hear. Hope to see you again, Pervinca.

Anyway moving to practicals I thought Pervinca's disappearance might warrant a rejig of the list but actually given that Boro said he probably wasn't voting it's not as imbalanced as I'd feared. If the Dead are already voting on who to empower we don't want to confuse things. So here it is again...

ZIL = PREY
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Eönwë
Lalaith

ZIL = PREDATOR
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote
Mithalwen
Nerwen

NONE OF THE ABOVE
Nogrod
Pervinca Took
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin

Well I hope it Is good news. With so many quiet folk, Pervinca gone and an ordo we can't rely on the dead. The numbers are a bit scary. I fear that we are already metaphorically attached to another object by an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis. So yes let's catch some wolves. This messaging debate is making Brexit negotiations look and snappy. Filibustering?